16. The Last of Sailing Ships - Jake s. Jordan

[Aaron] Hello and welcome to the Theorist Composer Collaboration, a podcast interview series highlighting modern composers and their compositions, hosted by music theorists. My name is Aaron D’Zurilla, and I'm a graduate music theory student at Florida State University, and I will be your host for today. The music that you were just listening to is an excerpt from the piece titled, The Last of Sailing Ships, by the composer Jake Jordan, who, alongside his music, is the featured guest for this episode. That leads me to welcome Jake Jordan himself to the program. How are you?

[Jake] I'm doing well. I'm happy to be on summer break right now. I'm getting some relaxation in before I dive back into another semester.

[Aaron] Is it ever really a break? Like totally?

[Jake] No.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jake] No. 

[Jake] Alright. So, Jake, how about you go ahead and introduce yourself personally, professionally, academically, however you choose.

[Jake] Sure. I'm Jake. I'm 24 years old. I'm about to enter the first year of my doctorate at Florida State after I have done, doing my masters. I did an undergrad in music education at Ohio State, and I'm from Northern Ohio, Huron Ohio, which is near Sandusky. Yeah, I'm currently composing an opera right now. I'm working on a few chamber pieces. Other than that, in my life, I'm working on moving apartments. That's me in this moment. 

[Aaron] I'm also working on moving apartments. It's like a cloud that hangs over you as the date approaches. Now, I have to ask, your undergrad, is it the Ohio State?

[Jake] Yes, it is technically the Ohio State University.

[Aaron] Yeah, because I remember I had Will Davenport on a while ago who went to the Ohio State in Athens, and he claimed that is the Ohio State, but if you ask anyone any Buckeyes, that's not the Ohio State.

[Jake] Yeah, well, technically they’re Ohio, this state university, and we are the Ohio State University. We actually do have a trademark on the word the.

[Aaron] Wonderful. That's beautiful. And so, okay, I was going to put this a little bit later in the questions, but you mentioned that you're just starting your doctoral studies, which congratulations on that at Florida State. That's obviously where we know each other is from Florida State. And one thing that's interesting about composition, opposed to music theory, is unless if you want to do something highly particular outside the academic system for music theory, you kind of have to go to the doctoral level or do something past your masters in terms of education. Not so much with composers, depending on whatever path you want to take. What compelled you or led to your decision to continue into the doctoral studies of composition? 

[Jake] Yeah, really great question. My mindset is always in education. That's what my undergrad was. That's what my mother did at one point. I love to teach. I love to educate. And that is what I want my living to be in the future. Composing is an equal love, which I also want my living to be. And ideally, I will be teaching, I will have a studio of composers, and I will be composing on the side as well, whether that's at a post-secondary, secondary level, whatever. That doesn't matter so much to me. Also, in my masters, just the two years, my masters, I learned an incredible amount about the process of composition, just about music in general. It's like you end that master's degree and you're like, wow, two years, that's it? I mean, I feel like I need some more. So there are just some things that institutions can teach you. And, you know, it's the same way around. If I wanted to learn from my environment and plant myself in New York City, I could do that too. But this is the path that I chose and I really feel like it works for me. 

[Aaron] My other question was going to be about the bachelors in music education, which is a little bit, that's not maybe always typical for someone focusing on composition. I can commend you on that. Education has always been my focus too. My mother is also in education, although she teaches pre-K. What did your mother teach?

[Jake] She also taught preschool.

[Aaron] Okay, cool. It requires a particular kind of love and patience that is rare.

[Jake] Yeah. Society needs preschool and kindergarten teachers and we should be paying them more than we are because their job is hard. Very hard.

[Aaron] It's incredibly hard. It is incredibly hard. So there's a bit of your background. What are some of your compositional inspirations? Maybe a style, a series of composers, a time period, or how do you think about your music?

[Jake] I always think about my music as a story. Anytime that I sit down to write a piece, there's a story or at least a general idea behind it. That's how my thought process works. That's how it is with the last of sailing ships. But every single one of my pieces is a specific storyline. Right now, if we're talking composers, my specific inspiration is a lot of John Adams, a little bit of, believe it or not, John Cage, which is almost on the other side of the spectrum.

[Aaron] I didn't expect that. Yeah.

[Jake] Yeah, that's relatively recent. Takashi Yoshimatsu, if you know who that is, a lovely Japanese composer. He's got a great piano concerto. He's got a couple symphonies, lots of great works from him. All of these composers kind of combine as my inspiration because of two things. Their music is accessible to a larger audience and it is reactionary music, meaning it's reactionary to the mid-century, kind of, post-war composers. They really prefer music as tonal beauty, which I'm not saying tonal music is beautiful. That's not the case, but it's a reaction against the post-war.

[Aaron] You know, that's really interesting because I'm not incredibly experienced in concert band because I'm a string player, but I had some of my composition professors at University of Florida who were brass and woodwind players. So of course a big chunk of repertoire they would talk about and show were that. And so maybe this shows my limited pocket of things to point to, but when I was listening to The Last of the Sailing Ships, I thought more of like Percy Granger, which is interesting because that is part of the post-World War II. It's not a non-American composer like the ones you listed before, but I was thinking Aaron Copeland with how programmatic some of your music is, which again is what you're saying is the later part of the 20th century those composers are reacting to. And I have to challenge you a little bit. I would not necessarily describe John Cage's repertoire as accessible.

[Jake] Forgive me because when I said accessible, I meant Yoshimatsu. I didn't specify that. I would also agree with that.

[Aaron] Yes, maybe some of those very early piano works, which I love early John Cage piano works. You talk about having a story in music and I've said before on different episodes of this podcast that that is the kind of music that I am most often attracted to just in my own listening. I personally don't always find too much purpose in absolute music. I just have a hard time as a listener, not as an analyst or as a professional, just as a personal music consumer. I don't find as much personal connection or enjoyment with absolute music, which for everyone is just music for music's sake like Sonata in F Major, you know, had a compositional idea and explored it. There's no tragic deep personal story attached to when the composer was writing or at least not prescribed. What are your thoughts on, I'm not asking you to say whether it's bad or not, but with, so you're highly programmatic or at least story driven with how you approach your own writing. What's your opinion on absolute music, especially in the modern day?

[Jake] So when I was younger, I found it really inaccessible, very difficult for me to understand essentially a lot of, you know, like Bach Prelude and Fugues. I'm like, well, I don't like math and I hate to practice. So why would I like these?

[Aaron] That's a beautiful combination.

[Jake] And, you know, I went to undergrad, I started taking piano lessons from Stephen Glaser and he was one of the most difficult professors that I've had in my life because he expected things from me. And he had a bar that he set and he would not lower that bar. And I think all of his students would say the same. But anyways, he started me on some Bach inventions after I specifically said I really don't want to study Bach with you. He said, well, Bach Invention in F and we play through it. And he's like, okay, do you feel any different? No, I still don't like to practice this. I can't find a connection. And then he played through it. And as he was playing, he was talking and he's like, you have to get creative with this absolute music. Because even though it's not programmatic to us, there's a very good chance that it was programmatic to Bach. Maybe he had a certain idea. And Bach is difficult to be programmatic with. It's a little easier when you get into his, you know, sonatas because there's a little more creativity there, less rigidity. When you think of, like, oh, okay, I'm in an argument with my mother about so and so and it's resolving here and it's getting tense here. You have to make these, this imagery for yourself. And I was like, okay, yeah, sure. I can start doing that. What really made it click for me was Mozart's C major sonata, what, K545. The second movement for that, he had me play through and I understood what he meant. Because he was like, this also helps with memory if you're trying to memorize a piece, which if you're a pianist, that's like the biggest problem that you'll ever endure. And I still to this day, if I sit down and play through that piece, I remember the story that I came up for myself. And it was essentially just like walking outside. Okay, here is a tree. The tree has a limb. It's fallen down. You know, things like this. Every single measure has a, an image. That's a strategy for listening to absolute music. It doesn't work for everyone. But that was some type of training that I got from Stephen Glaser, because it's somewhat out of our time. You know, 200 years, 300 years have gone by, our standards for entertainment and our standards for imagery are way higher than they have ever been. You have to adapt your mind a little bit. 

[Aaron] He really threw you in the deep end, making you find meaning in inventions, out of all things.

[Jake] Oh yeah. 

[Aaron] Even somehow less explorative than fugues, even. Because they're even shorter and not that fugues aren't technical, but it's even more rigid. 

[Jake] Yeah. 

[Aaron] Interesting, interesting. So you were raised in undergrad as a pianist.

[Jake] That was my main instrument. You had to do that while you were doing your music education curriculum.

[Aaron] That makes sense. That makes sense. So I brought this up before many times. I feel like I almost get annoyed with myself how much I bring it up, but I'm a violinist. Or yeah, I brought it up earlier anyways. But it's interesting with violin pedagogy, because Bach is very heavy for us as well. I mean, each week, each week, Dr. Lauer at University of Florida would assign us, we'd have three things. Etude, depending on what book you were in, an etude, Bach, and then whatever big thing you're working on. But Bach was always one of the three. Part of that is a pedagogy thing. I'm not going to question or debate that. That's a whole thing that's a bit beyond me. And also with standard practice for strings, we also have to memorize the Bach solo. Not necessarily with our other solo repertoire. I know pianists have to memorize everything. Awful. But I don't know how I feel about it, because I had such a hard time finding any connection or feeling with any of it. Because when I was growing up, I didn't grow up with classical music at all, or hardly at all. It was all pop music and popular music. My mom always used to quiz me on lyrics of songs in the car. She would always tell me that lyrics are the most important part of, you need to listen to the words. What is the song saying? What is this about? It sounds fun, but what are they talking about? Imagine a mother coaching an 11 year old, telling her about what bad moon rising by CCR means in the car on the way to Walmart, learning about the Vietnam War. So, you know. Things like that. So then when transitioning very harshly into a world that is completely devoid of that, and also it being presented as this is meant to build your technical skill. Sorry, but Bach is here to build your technical skill, which for violinists it really does. I find it so hard. And it's funny you bring up Mozart. I know the sonata you're talking about. That's a good movement. That's a good choice. But I, fragantly, hate playing Mozart. I think it is... I just, I want to... Like listening to it, it's fine. It's whatever. I so dislike practicing playing it. It feels soulless to me. No offense. I'm sure people could pull out a Mozart example that is masterful. Well, all of it’s masterful for the most part. But I just have such a hard time finding connection with that. It was very difficult, and I still don't really. Well, that was a nice tangent. I enjoyed that. But that's a good transition into The Last of Sailing Ships, which is the subject of today's episode alongside yourself. And as you alluded to, The Last of Sailing Ships has a very specific meaning and background. And can you please share with the audience what that is?

[Jake] Yeah, of course. The inspiration behind the piece is the sinking of the Pemir in 1957. So, the Pamir was the, essentially the last of commercial sailing ships. And it left Argentina, Buenos Aires, Argentina. I think it was the 10th of August. And then it was 41 days later. It was hit by Hurricane Kerry, and that was just off the coast of Portugal, and it sank. The specific piece follows that story. There is a decent amount of research I did into that sinking. But I'm in general really fascinated with sailing ships. I mean, it's the way that humans had gotten around the world for so long, up until, essentially, 100 years ago. And the story of the very last commercially used sailing ship is really fascinating to me. And also this ship, the Pamir, was the last sailing ship to have rounded Cape Horn, the bottom of South Africa, which is a very notoriously difficult voyage.

[Aaron] So, you said 1957 was the sinking. So, you know, I'm not very up to date on nautical history, or very knowledgeable. I was surprised to hear, or I've never heard of this before. And so when I was looking at the background, seeing the ship, this looks like something that would have been in the late 1800s or something like that. You know, just from an abstract view of it. Why were there, now it's the last one, so it wasn't wide, widely done, but why were there even still commercial sailing ships at that point of that size? You know, 1957, post World War II. I can't remember if the Korean War is over, or if it's ongoing, tensions in Vietnam are ramping up, the Cold War. We're far past what many people, and myself included, would conceptualize as like the sailing time period. So, can you say as to why, even up to that point, there was even one?

[Jake] Yeah, it's interesting you bring this up because in this period of time, we've actually surpassed the use of coal-powered ships, and it's mainly diesel and gasoline and oil, especially on the Great Lakes. But the straightforward answer is economics. The Pamir was owned by a German company that simply couldn't afford to own the ship. And one of the reasons why it sank is because there were several things that needed repairs that weren't repaired. So, the ship was built in 1905, which is still a very late period for a sailing ship to be built. I mean, there were steam-powered ships at that time, but they were still kind of in combat with the use of sails because sails are clean energy. They worked fairly well. I mean, they had worked for thousands of years before that time. And then World War II, I think, is what really did it in, even World War I. We decided, all right, we don't need sailing ships. But anyways, this specific ship lasted through World War I, through World War II. It was given to Italy for a brief period of time as a war reparation from Germany. After that, it was given back. The owner decided to just use it until it was done. This specific voyage, I believe they were transporting wheat and barley. So, not super important cargo. It was just being used to do the very basics. And then it went, and that was it.

[Aaron] So, you explained a bit about why you chose this story, the interest in nautical history, and especially in the concept of sailing ships and their importance in human history. But this piece is for concert band. And what led you to writing for concert band for this story?

[Jake] Originally, the piece was for orchestra, actually. And I wrote about two or three minutes of it, and I saw a submission for a concert band competition. And just for fun, I reorchestrated it for a small concert band. Really liked how it sounded and submitted that for the competition. And then obviously, later on, I won the spot in the competition and I wrote the full piece.

[Aaron] So, it has been premiered? 

[Jake] Yes. 

[Aaron] And by what group or organization? 

[Jake] The Florida State University Wind Ensemble, directed by David Plack.

[Aaron] Excellent. Congratulations on that. Congratulations on that. I was, not that everything needs strings, but I was imagining, and of course, it's because of who I am, I was imagining the string choir to come in at some point. But then again, I'm not a band person so much. 

[Jake] You're like me in that because I'm trying to not necessarily remove myself, but remove myself from the comfort of writing for strings. Because there are a lot of opportunities there where a string section would have sounded ideal, but I really wanted to constrict myself in the band world. 

[Aaron] Strings are just the best. They are. Sorry, everybody. I, you know, I talked about this on last week's episode, where one of the last major pieces I ever wrote, because I'm not in composition, was a piece for brass band. And, you know, well, when I talked about it last week, it got a little emotional because that's what the episode was about. I have said, man, it was really fun, but it was really restrictive at first. To deal with a palette that, not to insult the different timbres of a brass band, but is somewhat similar. Overall, you look at all the staves, it's like, I don't need the euphonium, I got the tuba. Yes, yes, but it's all about learning the different palettes, so I understand that. Here's an interesting question, or something that is a bit more controversial, but it's something that is, even beyond all the things you've already listed, unique about your piece of music, which is that in the instrumentation, you include a certain kind of percussion instrument, which is, and please correct my pronunciation if it is wrong, a slenthem?

[Jake] Yeah, from what I've seen, slenthem is the way that the English pronounce it.

[Aaron] Yeah, so a slenthem, which is a traditional Javanese gamelan instrument. And so this opens a line of questioning that, that makes it sound like an interrogation, a line of inquiry. Also, that could be an investigation too, but you're from Ohio, you're an American composer, I am, well I'm not an American, I'm just American, not a composer. And that opens the question, and in many recent years there's been a very well warranted debate and discussion about people outside of a culture writing for instruments that are traditional and integral to the culture of another group of people or another culture that is typically non-Western, like in this case. And so this, you know, I'm prompting you to talk about this a bit and what your thinking was and your opinion of that discussion, not accusatorily, but when I saw that in the program notes I was like, oh, you know, that's really unique, because you're not necessarily evoking anything from that culture necessarily. I'm sure you're going for that timbre or that effect. And so, how do you view that discussion yourself as a white American composer writing for a traditional Javanese gamelan instrument? What is your thinking with that?

[Jake] The first thing I'm thinking of when I'm writing a piece is sound, obviously. That's my job. And I needed to find something that was similar to the crotales, but a little bit on the lower end, and I didn't want to use anything electronic. If there was something that I could use that was naturally occurring, then great. And for a while I wasn't sure what that was. I tried to see if there were crotales that were six, eight, two octaves lower, something like that. And I came to Florida State and I don't know if you know this, but they have a world music ensemble or world music class. And part of that is Javanese gamelan music. And I heard them playing one day and it's like, okay, this is a really interesting sound. It's kind of exactly what I'm going for. And I just took a second, well, a lot more than a second, I took several months of educating myself on the specific instruments for timbral reasons. I wanted to figure out which one would work for me. And I landed on the slenthems. Now, as far as using that instrument goes, I think using any instrument around the world for your sound is fair game. I don't have a place in writing Javanese gamelan music. I never will. I don't need to. I will listen to it. Similar is I don't really have a place in replicating Mozart's music. The obvious thing being I have a closer connection to Mozart because of my ancestry than Javanese gamelan. But, you know, there's no reason for me to write either. When I include that instrument in the ensemble, there's also the added benefit of education. Because when I put that in the score, the first question from nearly all of the ensemble was, what is this? Why is this here? How do I play this? And I recommend that they play it as they would in the ensemble itself. I'm not recommending that they use any different style or technique. In fact, it needs to be played as it is usually for that sound to be emitted. But as a result, a lot of those students had learned, oh, I didn't even know that this had existed and that leads them down a path. Now, that is not the main reason why that instrument is in the ensemble. I'm not adding that in being like, oh, I'm so terrific for adding this in and I'm educating the world because of it. No, that's just a behind the scenes benefit. Yeah, long story short, it was the sound that I needed. I think it's a perfectly crafted instrument for the timbre. And I hope that people, when they see that in the score, they won't just brush it aside, you know, get it. I hope they'll look into it and be like, okay, where is this from?

[Aaron] Fair enough. So this is not necessarily a counter. But how about, you said around the world, the soundscape of an instrument, maybe not replicate, you know, you don't have a place in writing Javanese gamelan music. I think that's a fair assessment. How about let me give you a little scenario. I'm not going to call out the specifics because this is real. But at University of Florida, there was a, I'm giving a little bit more detail than I probably should, but whatever. At University of Florida, there was a Christmas concert one year, not going to say what it was. It was a holiday concert, but everything, it was all Christmas except like one piece. But so they could call it a holiday concert. So, you know, that's how that goes usually. But there was one piece that had, that was a fixed media and a live choir. And the live choir was singing a Roman Catholic hymn. And the fixed media was recording, an actual recording of vocalized prayers from, I believe, Saudi Arabia or someplace in the Middle East and a major Islamic city. Around the time of the day when the bell or the toll strikes and it's time for them to pray. And now I don't know this very intimately, but I know colloquially or however that word goes, that form of prayer, although to us we interpret it as sung, you know, with the way that they speak the Quran in the religion of Islam, they do not consider that music and it's offensive to see it as music. And so it was a little questionable at the time, not only the fact that you have a Roman Catholic choir singing over top of a fixed media, which is questionable about the representation of like Christianity speaking over Islam, but you know, representing that Islamic prayer, which is very strictly not seen as musical or a music expression, but as being essentially appropriated as such. So if we were to apply the definition of the voice as an instrument and their style of speaking or praying is technically one of those things that you were saying are fair game, not just, my point is, is to extrapolate that line of thinking to its extremes. There could be some issues with that.

[Jake] Yeah, I see exactly what you're saying. And I think there's a specific imagery in that example that makes it worse. And you already pointed that out and it's exploiting another religion, which, you know, is never a good thing. The only religion that I'll ever exploit is Catholicism because, you know, I mean, I'm a Catholic, I was baptized Catholic and I don't think anyone's going to complain about that.

[Aaron] I've never had someone say I'm going to exploit a religion.

[Jake]  It is, it's the reality of the situation. I mean, they've almost destroyed the world like seven different times. 

[Aaron] That is true. 

[Jake] But no, in all seriousness, I'm, the slenthem is supposed to be a part of the ensemble, but it's not supposed to give the audience any recollection of anything other than the timbre. It's just adding to timbre. And, you know, I always encourage if someone has a specific issue with that, that they are more than welcome to communicate that with me because, you know, I'm also 24, I'm fairly young. I don't understand everyone's perspective because I haven't heard everyone's perspective. And if you're listening to this and you have a genuine concern that I haven't thought of or seen, then communicate that with me. But I genuinely do think that the instrument as it is used in the ensemble is okay. And I think it would be a lot different if I used a full Javanese Gamelan ensemble because that would be very obviously me directly exporting something and placing it in, you know, my own work. 

[Aaron] Like I was saying earlier, not to cut you off, but like I was saying earlier, you know, also there's a difference between using it for the timbre and then trying to, like, if you're trying to evoke in, gosh, this is problematic, an Asian sound or something. You know that, that, that gets really bad very quickly all the stereotypes of like film music with that sort of stuff, so…

[Jake] Yeah. Exactly. And that's that's another thing that's going on is I'm actually specifically not evoking anything from that region at all. It's not supposed to evoke anything other than imagery of sun reflecting on the water actually. And then there's the added benefit of adding that instrument in, allows us to talk about it as we are now, which I never have a problem talking about things like this because I always come away from the conversation learning something new. Or, you know, perhaps even changing a habit or maybe someone else learns, oh, maybe I couldn't turn the snare off of a snare drum in a band piece to make it sound, like, exotic, you know, which is historically bad thing about band pieces is using percussion instruments in a weird way to make it sound like it's non American music. I mean, it's, it's not only lazy creativity, your creativity, but it's also offensive. 

[Aaron] Yes. Well, Jake, I, we're going to move on to your actual piece of music, but I thank you for engaging in that conversation, which as…

[Jake] Absolutely. 

[Aaron] You know, I'm not an arbiter of such things, but I feel like it's an important thing to bring up. And I want everyone to know I did not just spring this on Jake. I made sure that he was comfortable, I made sure he was, I didn't like bring you in here and say, all right, buddy, let's, let's talk about one of the most controversial things in composition right now. So thank you for engaging, engaging with that.

[Jake] Thanks for leading that conversation. 

[Aaron] Yeah, yeah, of course. And also, when I say I prepped him, I didn't, like, tell him exactly what I was going to say. I just said, Oh, are you okay if we talk about this? And he's like, Yeah, yeah. So thank you for being comfortable talking about that in a public setting. I know that is not always easy. So let's get into the music itself. This is something I really am always interested in when it comes to large ensembles with composers and you have a, may I say, ass load of percussion instruments too. It's almost ridiculous. But how do you personally approach writing for a large ensemble? You know, there's a lot of different ways that I learned about in my introductory undergrad classes. piano reduction, reduced score, maybe different like pulling out different choirs and writing for them individually, or, you know, just going straight for it on the page, all the staves, which in my experience is a painful ordeal. But how do you personally approach writing for a large ensemble and maybe specifically this piece? 

[Jake] I'd say I have a hybrid approach. Sometimes I'll do piano sketches or recordings and just record them to voice memo on my phone and then orchestrate them later on. This specific piece did start just writing in all the staves. As I was writing this piece, I may have added one or two extra instruments in a section, just as I needed them. Yeah, I'm not intimidated by starting full score, but I think the one problem with that is that it's easy to become overwhelmed and, you know, anyone listening to this understands.

[Aaron] Especially with band. I just want to say, especially with band.

[Jake] Exactly. And in that case, if I have to do that, I'll just score for one flute, one clarinet, a bassoon, a trumpet, trombone, tuba, and then go through and then you can expand the score as you go on. That can get kind of complicated just because you have to kind of expand your orchestration. But when you do that, when you have that set of restrictions, it's like you're gifting yourself an oboe instead of a clarinet now. You're gifting yourself, okay, trumpet 2 instead of trumpet 1 in case to make things actually playable or, you know, to add upper harmony, something like that.

[Aaron] So let's now take a little journey through this piece, and I specifically describe it as a journey because we're going to go step through step through the process of the final journey of this ship, because you write it very programmatically, something that we've talked about a bit. And what I really like is that you have highly accessible signifiers at different points in the rehearsal markings in the score that tell you essentially what is going on in the texture at any given time, and this piece is broken up into three movements. And, what a, small aside, what I really like about the way, I love it that you broke it up into movements, is usually I get annoyed with some much older classical music with movements because it's sometimes the movements are so different, it might as well be a different piece.

[Jake] Yeah. 

[Aaron] Which I've never understood, but that, that's a whole aside. Here are, it's the different steps of the whole journey and the story. Movement one is Departure, movement two is Last Day Above Water, and movement three is Capsize. So in movement one, it is very much, I would call it sectional almost.  And so we're going to go through and I'm going to have you talk about each little section. So we open the piece with Buenos Aires Morning. That's the, what's written in the score, and you have a little bit of a motivic introduction. Can you tell me what you were thinking there? 

[Jake] Yeah, this is just essentially a military, what do they call it, a reveille, the French word, R-E-V-I-E-L-L-E, something like that. E-I-L-L-E. Trumpet fanfare that you would hear as a sailor on a ship. I cannot say for certain that that morning they woke up to a trumpet call, but in my story they do. 

[Aaron] I love that. I don't know if they did, but in my story they did. I love that. Yeah, that makes it, it evokes a certain atmosphere, or like attitude, not even just an atmosphere, it evokes a certain drive. And so then the second signifier, or the second thing in the score, in the score is Preparing to Depart, Lively. We’ve got some spicy rhythms going on here. I love that. That's the reason why you got all that fun percussion in there. Can you talk about this little section here?

[Jake] Yeah, so this is rigging the ship, preparing it for sea. Imagine you're getting yourself up out of your hammock and you're kind of rushing to get these things done, and that's exactly what it is. And these rhythms are actually directly derivatives from some Argentine rhythms. And I thought, Buenos Aires, this is this perfect opportunity. Yeah, it's as simple as that.

[Aaron] That's cool. I did not know it derived from Argentinian rhythms. That's really cool. And so one thing I find cool and interesting is the next bolded section in this first movement is Fog Ahead. And unlike the other one, this is a little bit less sectional in that there's a lead-in, you know, almost like fog creeping in. And it feels a bit ominous. I'm guessing that's on purpose, but can you talk about that a bit?

[Jake] Yeah, so off of the coast of South America, the East Coast, most mornings there's a fog that rolls off the mountains and then straight into the water and over the ocean. If you haven't seen it, look up pictures. It's beautiful. I've been grateful enough to have seen it in person, and there's just, there's nothing like it. This would have happened as they exited port. They would have been going through some of this fog, and it would have been a little nerve-racking because sailing in fog is notoriously dangerous. You're about to go on this massive journey all the way to Europe. Your ship is almost falling apart. And I think the specific point in the actual story is before they left, they were told by several people not to leave because their ship was going to capsize because the cargo was not securely held in the hold, which means if it shifted, the whole ship would lean to port or starboard. This is a little bit of a foreshadowing of what's to come. Anytime you hear, you know, sol me re do fa me re do, that's derivative from Eternal Father, Strong to Save. It's a very easy sinking motif. You know, it's easy as that.

[Aaron] Yes, when you were describing sailing through fog with a rickety ship that at any point could fall apart, I was imagining me driving up to Tallahassee yesterday in my 2004 Nissan Sentra with 250,000 miles while it was a downpour on the rural west bend of Florida, where it's 50 miles between each gas station. That's the evocation that I'm getting. 

[Jake] It's a Nissan. She's got another 250 on her.

[Aaron] If I get to half a million miles on that car, I'm going to make a statue out of it. I don't know where I'd put it.

[Jake] Front yard, you live in Florida. It has to be your front yard.

[Aaron] That was good.

[Jake] So this is, this section is where I had the most fun programmatically adding in buoy bells and ratchets and you could imagine that you're pulling ropes, you know, tying things. There's a whistle, which is very direct and obvious. I just wanted to see what I could do.

[Aaron] Yeah, yeah, of course. And so let's move on to the second movement, which is Last Day Above Water. Wow, I wonder what that could mean. I really wonder what that is implying. And so I called the first movement a bit sectional because, you know, there's different parts of a departure, you know, which makes sense. But I would argue that the second and third movement are less sectional and there are, you know, obviously it's programmatic. So different things are happening at certain times of the movement. But like your signifiers of Slowly, or Gradually, or Hauntingly, or so on. It's a little bit more of a flow, like a storyline progression. I almost compare it to I don't know if you've seen it was viral a while ago, but someone recreated the Titanic sinking in real time over the course of many hours. 

[Jake] Oh. Yeah. 

[Aaron] It's like watching that, where like there are certain things that happen at given moments, but it's just like a vignette of it slowly happening like the whole whole journey. And so can you talk a bit about your approach? We got a little bit specific in the first movement because of the departure, but with Last Day Above Water. It's not exactly spelling doom all the time, but it's not exactly a comforting movement either for obvious reasons. But can you tell me what you were thinking when you were going through that? 

[Jake] Yeah, you have it exactly right that the first movement is vignettes. The whole piece is structured as introducing characters and ideas, and then the next two movements are developing those to the inevitable. It's actually kind of funny that you brought up Titanic because the movie Titanic is structured the same way where you know what's going to happen. No one went into that movie thinking, oh boy, I wonder how this ends. But you know you have the whole hour and a half of love story, drama, you know, and then you have, oh, okay, this is what happens. And it makes it more real, you know. So, if you have a little bit of build up to measure two, which I think of more as a meditation, then you start to understand the story and the piece as a whole. So 2 is structured as kind of continuing on. And then there's a section of crotales, glockenspiel, tubular bells, and the slenthem, and there might be a bell tree in there. And that is the reflection of the sun on the water for unknowingly the characters last time, but you as the audience member know, all right, this is the last time they're going to ever see the sun. It's a beautiful moment. It's a sad moment. And then, obviously, it goes back into doom section, and then it ends on a somewhat positive note recalling back to that first trumpet theme, the opening theme.

[Aaron] I feel like I make this joke every once in a while, but I feel like I just scored some music theory points about the first movement sectional and vignette based and then the second and third are overall progression based. 

[Jake] Yeah. 

[Aaron] Makes me feel validated that I should go to school for the thing that I'm going to school for. Not that I mean, mind blowing. 

[Jake] It's mutually validating because you pointed that out. And that's what I was going for, so. 

[Aaron] Very good. Also, the score is very finely detailed, too, of course. So that, that helps, too. The third movement is called Capsize. It's not like I thought that you were going to end it like, you know, with a We Are the Champions moment or, you know, something, something uplifting, but it felt like the ending, at least it or the whole thing felt like a funeral march. Again, like that Titanic video that's talking about there's a certain point in the real time reenactment, whereas, or even in the movie, The Titanic, when the musicians are playing, there's just a moment where it basically is a death march. There's nothing else to do. But it ended like Holst's Planets almost, it just dissipated completely, which I don't think is too hard to imagine as to why, the boat’s underwater. But how are you, how are you, appro- I also really like how strict the rhythms get in this final movement, a lot of quarter notes, a lot of strong accents, you got a lot of staccatos. It's very serious, and it's a bit stricter in its flow, opposed to the first movement, which is a lot more joyous. Can you tell me, tell us the audience, your approach to the third movement and how to close out the story and which, which is essentially the pinnacle of the story too.

[Jake] I thought about ending the piece with a fanfare that it started with. 

[Aaron] That's what I was, that's a very band thing, especially if you're evoking a military memorial, that's what I was expecting.

[Jake] Yeah, I think, I think that's what the audience was expecting the night of the premiere as well because it does dissipate, and I remember a good 10 or 15 seconds where nobody knew whether they should clap or not. I'm like, this is perfect. This is exactly what I needed to happen. Because, I mean, it's true, thousands of years of sailing history, and that was it. Like, there are no longer any commercial sailing ships, and it's a little sad, but it's how it is. I'm happy that I did it like that.

[Aaron] Damn, that's sad.

[Jake] Yeah, I mean, some things, yeah, some things are just sad and you don't have to make them happy.

[Aaron] Jake, okay. No, I agree. No, that was a very, that was a very artful and smart decision to make at the time and in retrospect. And in the recording that you sent me, I heard that long pause between the audience and when I, you know, I never look at the score when I first listened to these, when I'm sent them, I just listened straight through as if I was an audience member. I was thinking, okay, when does the bugle call come in at the end? When does the French horn rise from nothing? Or when does, when is there a pedal tone from the low brass, or? And then I thought, how long is this fermata on the rests at the end? And then the clapping started and I looked at the score, I was like, oh, okay, they didn't know, the audience didn't know what to do for that given thing.

[Jake] Like a ransom, I will write movement four as soon as we put sailing ships back into commercialization. And I want that written on my tombstone, by the way.

[Aaron] All right then, that's an interesting hill to die on. All right, so, okay, you've mentioned it a handful of times and I wanted to talk about it at the end because I believe it's most prominent in the final movement, which makes sense given what you said. But you did draw inspiration and directly transplanted some elements of a nautical hymn, as you said, which is titled, Eternal Father, Strong to Save. What brought you to that hymn and to bring that into the piece and what does the hymn actually mean as well?

[Jake] So, if you know the band piece Watchman, Tell Us of the Night, there is a reharmonization of a hymn at the end of that piece. And that piece is much, much darker than my own. If you haven't listened to it, listen to it and look into the history and the background of it. And I was really inspired by that, that reharmonization. And I was like, this is a great idea because just putting the hymn in is like, yeah, everyone's heard Eternal Father, Strong to Save. This specific hymn is for those who have been lost at sea. I believe it's still used by the Navy. They'll play it a couple times a year. I'm sure it's played at funeral services and memorial services. But it was written for any sailor at sea who had lost their lives to the water, which in human history are countless. And this is the one benefit of no longer having sailing ships is that this is less common. This is less of a problem than it was in the past. When you're a diesel freighter, you don't need sails to avoid a storm. You just go around it with the gasoline or the diesel that you have. 

[Aaron] But Jake Jordan wants to bring back those naval deaths with the...

[Jake] Yeah, this will be my presidential campaign in 40 years.

[Aaron] Hell or high water, literally, we're bringing back the sails. Not to derail your serious thought, but that's very thoughtful.

[Jake] No, that was the end of it.

[Aaron] Okay, no, no. Yeah. But I did not know that that was a staple of even the modern Navy as a remembrance of people lost at sea.

[Jake] Yeah. In fact, the marching chiefs at Florida State may play that for Memorial Day weekend or something. I know Ohio State's band usually played that.

[Aaron] Cool.

[Jake] Sorry, The Ohio State's universities.

[Aaron] Of course. Can't forget that. Can't forget that. So we're coming to the end of the featuring of this piece. But is there anything else you want to say specifically about The Last of Sailing Ships? 

[Jake] Only specifically is that I have to thank the Atlantic Coast Conference Band Directors Association for rewarding me the opportunity to write it because that grant is specifically for new and emerging composers. They don't let any experienced composers write for them, which, if you're an ensemble, that's a very risky move. You know, it'd be nice to just have Frank Ticheli write you a piece and that's it. But they are actively giving people who are trying to get into a very difficult industry an opportunity. And the restrictions are almost none. I think the restrictions are 20 minutes and an obvious orchestrational restriction. But you are rewarded the creativity as well as money, which is also important. And you have a performance at the end of the grant. So I just have to give them my thanks. It was terrific working with Dr. Plack at Florida State and his interpretation of this piece, as well as all of the students and when the ensemble, couldn't have been better. Very easy group to work with, very fun group to work with as well.

[Aaron] Yes, that is incredibly rare. A minimal restriction 20 minute frame for only new composers and large ensemble. That is like a, that is insanely rare. Usually it's like you get a five minute character piece if you get that opportunity. Yeah, that's phenomenal. So speaking about the industry. Well, first, before we do that, actually, I want to ask you just so we can get your thoughts on everything that you do. What does music and composition, broadly, mean to you?

[Jake] It's an expression of voice and an expression of idea. For me, I, usually, like I said, I have a story that I'm interested in and I want to share to the world my specific perspective. When I write stage music, it's more so I want them to leave with lessons and ideas, same as you would write a book, and most importantly, I want them to leave entertained when I'm writing stage music. Which is, I understand, is a bit of a hot take, but I would like my audience to enjoy listening to what I do.

[Aaron] Shots fired. 

[Jake] I'm not saying they don't enjoy listening to other composers at all. In the end, it's a them problem.

[Aaron] Yeah, I understand what you mean. I'll make fun of you again for saying that John Cage is one of your biggest inspirations, if that's one of your goals.

[Jake] The further I get into life, the more accessible 4’33” is because I just want four minutes and 33 seconds of silence.

[Aaron] That's some real stuff right there. Let's flip it around a bit to the dark side for many people. Music theory. What does it mean to you as a professional, maybe even as a person?

[Jake] As a professional, it's an educational tool. It's just a way to, for me to analyze other composers and to understand them. I think it's important today to use it as a common language between composers and then, between composers and theorists, and then between theorists. We actively use it to try and determine what composers are doing, what audiences want, how to make things accessible. It's a very important topic because it's like the deciphering of the messy mind of composers. For every composer, you have five people who know what they're doing and who can say what that composer is doing.

[Aaron] That is very true. You said as a professional. What's your opinion of it personally then?

[Jake] Personally… 

[Aaron] You can be as harsh as you want. It's okay.

[Jake] No, I was just, I started in music theory before I did composition. I took music theory courses at Oberlin as a student. I think it's a fine line. It's easy to get caught up in the technical part of the music theory world, which I don't blame people. It feels good when you complete a part writing assignment the right way. You feel like God.

[Aaron] That is the standard most teachers hold you to when it comes to partwriting.

[Jake] That is true. If you do it correctly, you chase that feeling for the rest of your life.

[Aaron] That's how I ended up where I am. One part writing assignment at a time. It was like the dopamine from completing that cadential six-four.

[Jake] Yes. When I say this, I'm accusing nobody of this. I think it's easy to get caught up in the technicalities. But I think the focus should always be where music is moving and where things are going. I think that modern theorists, at least my contemporaries around me, have that exactly. I mean, we're analyzing pop music. We haven't really done that in the past, from what I know. And analysis is getting less formal, which I think is important. Making things formal is tricky because you want things to be accessible. And I think that's the only thing that I've ever had problems with with music theory. And I feel like music theorists today agree with that. 

[Aaron] What element of formality is leaving that you think is fine to go? That can manifest in a lot of different ways.

[Jake] Topic restrictions and academic language.

[Aaron] I would say academic language is not leaving. I think the pockets where, it's like pop music, for example. Pop music analysis has existed for quite a while, but you're right in that it's, it being treated as a serious topic is recent, even if the scholarship has been around. It's always like, oh, what a cute little thing you do over there, but stay over there. So you're right in that it has become a lot more serious. I would still argue there's a strong underpinning of, well, it's elitism. When it comes to academic language and accessibility, I’ve always…Do you know what the horseshoe political theory is?

[Jake] I don't think so.

[Aaron] So if you think of a horseshoe, you know, you got two ends that are not connected at the top. They're close together and you got a loop. It's like the farthest most right wing and the farthest most left wing are actually more similar than not, the more extreme that you get. There's political, there's, like, ideological issues with that. It's not that simple. Whatever, whatever. But imagine that. I think of that with, like, awful, just bad writing and scholarship, like just technically grammatically bad. And then the highest level of academic writing are the two ends of the horseshoe.

[Jake] Yes. Yes.

[Aaron] If you take like the SAT essay of a not very great high school student and then like a theorist with 50 years of experience at the highest levels of academia, you will probably get the same amount of information out of each essay.

[Jake] You're not wrong at all.

[Aaron] Not to insult, like, the work of very experienced and knowledgeable people, but sometimes, you know, it's like you said, it can get lost in the technicalities. If your entire career is making sauce, then you're going to get lost in the sauce.

[Jake] Oh, I love that.

[Aaron] Yeah. So, you know, sometimes perspective can be lost as you delve further into that. So I like to think of that as, I want to coin a term for it, but the, applying the political horseshoe theory to academic writing. And so, okay, so there's music theory, some of its misgivings, just as any field. But speaking of any fields misgivings, or positive, we don't need to be negative here if you don't want, but how do you see the field of composition right now as a developing place? 

[Jake] That's a terrific question. I've been a little far sighted recently, meaning that I'm only seeing things close up. For a reason, I'm just doing my own thing right now. And if a new piece presents itself in front of me, I will listen to it and most of the time I'll enjoy it, but I'm not actively listening to the new music scene, at least not to the point where others might be, you know, obsessed with it. It's also tricky because there are so many branches of new music. Jazz, I mean, everything, even jazz has branched out into 25 different things. And I think everyone's just doing their own thing. And we are lucky enough to have such a broad audience of listeners and such a wide range of being able to express yourself, where you have communities of people listening to what they want. And you can write whatever you want and there will be an audience. 

[Aaron] So I'm going to, I'm trying to stoke a little bit of… 

[Jake] Yeah.

[Aaron] I would disagree a little bit about the availability of wide audience when it comes to new music. Because that's an internal problem. That's why the jokes of, oh, you want to be a composer, have fun at Aldi. Not that joke. Aldi is a great place to shop. I'm more saying as the, good luck being a cashier there, which, respect to those people, we need you. Oh, but I agree. There's just so much new music. I would say that even as a theorist, I was pretty in tune with newer music even before starting this podcast. But after starting this podcast and very purposely engaging with everything that's online and out there in the world, it is so flattingly overwhelming that it's hard to conceptualize it at all. So like the question I asked, what do you think about the new music scene or whatever, it's kind of impossible to answer because there's just so much stuff out there. 

[Jake] Yeah. 

[Aaron] And it's not just a problem of over saturation, in my opinion. It's also the problem of, I don't think people are really that, when I say people, I mean concert going audience, casual listeners. You have someone like myself, someone who maybe did a minor in performance in college, but is in finance. They might go to concerts. Or maybe someone just really is into classical music and they'll try to go to this concert. But I would say, overwhelmingly, if we're going to scope out outside of the university system, I don't really think there's that huge of an audience for new music. 

[Jake] I'm really glad that you brought this up because this is exactly the problem that I'm trying to tackle, is the internal group of academic music. I see what you mean. The audience of sailing ships, I wanted to get to the last person at the back of the hall who didn't want to be there because their kid was playing or their nephew was playing. They just showed up after work. They're tired. I wanted them to at least understand that. And this is the same problem that I'm trying to tackle right now with the opera that I'm writing. Opera is notoriously inaccessible. The audiences are usually still rich. Usually, you have to live in a large city. And it's difficult because you need the talent to pull off most operas. You need the space and you need the time. So with this newest opera, I want any regular old person who doesn't understand any music, you know, I pretend like I just sat down and listened to something other than Taylor Swift the first time in my life, to sit down, understand what I'm trying to say, but also get something out of it as well. I will say I am a little frustrated with the community of hidden musicians in academia. I can see the point that you're trying to make there because, while it is nice to have your contemporaries say, oh, I like this. I like what you're doing. It might be nice. I think for our survival, and I think for the benefit to the rest of the world, we're going to have to shout a little louder and we're going to have to make some, maybe some compromises that might restrict the level of esotericism you put in your music. You know, as much as I want to write a lengthy, complicated section, sometimes I just don't, and it's easier on me and it's easier on the audience. I can and that's the whole point. It's the same reason why artists don't do oil paintings of people anymore. You know, they can, but that's, you know, for what? We don't need to.

[Aaron] Well, okay, so I'm going to play some devil's advocate here because I what I'm about to say, I don't agree with very much and I don't like this attitude, but a rebuttal to something like that from a well-meaning scholar or a contemporary of, I'm not calling out a specific person, but I think one thing that some people would find an issue with that is the blunt accusation is dumbing down. But let's be a little bit more charitable to that view, is that if you purposely choose not to go that extended mile of, let's say, esotericism, let's take that example that hypothetical you gave. Are you in a way then blunting your own development in your music, the true artistry of it, what your real express- because you're very, you're intentional on expressing your own voice and let's say your own voice has those, that esotericism. And so if you rein yourself in with the concern of commercialization of it almost, which is kind of, that's kind of cynical way to say that, but let's go with it. Commercialization of it, the appeal and the audience do then lose some of the authenticity, the development in the art.

[Jake] Well, you this is the, I think the trickiest thing about being a composer is you have to have things in moderation. In what I'm writing now, if I were to start with the third scene, I'd lose my audience immediately because it is, it is very complicated. There are a lot of things going on that I don't expect them to understand musically, but it accompanies the mood and what I do is instead of dumbing things down and making compromises like that, I'll start something accessible and then have it develop into pockets of what you might call esoteric music. That's essentially watering it down and if you do that gradually, your audience will get used to it and that's how music has worked forever. These pockets and then you have a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more. And then my pieces range in accessibility as well. So you can give someone options if you just want to listen to something that you'll understand on a basic level, then here you go. Listen to this musical. If you want something middle line, listen to the opera. If you want something as academic as I can write or as esoteric as I can write, then here's this third option. In that way, I'm showing the world that I am able to do those things, but truly my preference is to communicate to people and composers have a wide range of ideals. Some only write for themselves. That's totally fine. I like to write and have someone in the audience take something away from it because that is what I feel like my place in the world is. They're not necessarily extracting my opinions, but they're extracting opinions of their own based on what I presented to them. 

[Aaron] And I want to say I agree with you. I agree with you. I think that's a good approach. The perspective that I just presented was a very carefully curated version of some of the aggressiveness shown by contemporary artists and composers, a reactionary against public facing music. And there's also that complex nature with music theory, public music theory versus internal. I agree with you that, you know, in my own scholarship, my own work, there's some fundamental things that people are just not going to be able to understand if they're not within the field. You know, I would almost compare newer composition and some newer techniques to like drinking whiskey. You're going to lose some people from the outright because they just hate the taste. It burns too much. Very few people just start drinking whiskey and say, damn, amazing. There's a harsh burn. And then as you develop your taste over time, you know, or any kind of hard alcohol or liquor or whatever, or honestly any kind of food sometimes, especially with this, at least for myself, you start understanding the nuances. You can appreciate it more. You can tell what's more well conceived or less conceived, what's more detailed or less detailed. Whereas, you know, a couple of years prior, it might sound like absolute trash. A couple of years later, going back and revisiting, you're like, oh, okay, I understand the complexities of this given thing. Are you, how familiar are you with Milton Babbitt?

[Jake] I'm familiar with him.

[Aaron] So as someone who myself is trying to make a living and a life out of music theory, academia, I can't say too harshly my opinion on some of his ideology. But this is reminding me so much of the conversation of the composer theorist, which is a concept that I don't know if he truly invented, but at least popularized, popularized. There's a lot of different elements to it, but it's essentially the opposite of what you're saying. Someone like the best position of a music academic is someone who is equal parts music theorist and equal parts composition, someone who prioritizes musical, compositional and theoretical development against all else. And if the public is not willing to listen, which Milton Babbitt assumes most of the time, they are incapable of for a numerous number of, quite frankly, awful reasons that he claims, that it's not important for the public to listen. But on, and that the truest composers to find advancement in the field of composition need the security and privacy of the academic system and institution to truly develop music. And that it fundamentally does not matter if the audience listening to the music is large and more the quality of the audience, which thank goodness I censor things. I fucking hate that. I think that’s, I think that's bullshit. Now, Milton Babbitt has many decades of scholarship and I just simplified a lot of his arguments into maybe a little bit of a harsher light, but I really dislike that attitude. And I appreciate listening to someone like yourself who has almost the opposite attitude to that. I really dislike that in music theory as well. That kind of, you know. The reason why we're not scientists is because there's a good deal of science that is only understood by the top level scientists do work that only top level scientists can appreciate and understand for the advancement of society. If we treat art like that, I believe that we lose the point of art, almost in a way. Why not be a biologist then? Why am I looking at art or music? If all I care about is progress, what does progress even mean in art? You know, quote unquote progress. 

[Jake] No, I completely agree. I think hiding your music from the public is exposing a certain level of self-consciousness, which is fine. We're all self-conscious, but we can't afford hiding our music from the public anymore. We simply can't afford that.

[Aaron] A lot of times literally. A lot of times literally. 

[Jake] That's exactly what I'm saying. Because I have to explain my degree to everybody that isn't in the music world. And like you said, usually they have a negative response because we tend to come across as arrogant and esoteric. I don't want to come across as that. I just want to be a composer and I want people to get something out of my music. It doesn't have to be enjoyment, but it should be a reaction that's accessible. And yeah. Hiding music from anyone, hiding art from anyone is a great disservice and a great injustice. We shouldn't be doing that.

[Aaron] Speaking of that, how do you enjoy Florida? I'm just kidding. 

[Jake] Well, that's a whole conversation. 

[Aaron] That is a whole conversation. Well, I appreciate your thoughts on that. We're coming to the close of this episode. So, you've brought it up a couple of times and we've talked about what's going on with you in your professional life. You're starting your doctoral studies at Florida State. I'm glad that you'll continue to be here. I look forward to seeing what you're doing. You're also the president of SCI at Florida State University. Congratulations, Mr. President. I had the last president, now Dr. Nico Gutierrez, on as well. And you are working on an opera. Of course, dissertation work is coming in the next two years or three. But my question is, what's next for you? I kind of have a good idea already, but what do you got going on? 

[Jake] Obviously, finishing up that stage work. I have a personal goal of writing more chamber pieces just because I could use that challenge personally. And then I have a requiem for piano that I need to finish. And it's not for any certain person. It's just a general requiem. It is for prepared and extended technique piano. And that's actually an example of a more academic piece that I'm working on. Depending on reactions in the future, you are listening to this and you hear that piece. Just let me know what you thought. Because I'm doing a lot of experimentation with what an average listener will react with. Oh, it's just another one of those pieces, or I really liked that, or that was too simple. Yeah. 

[Aaron] Alright, alright. And, so, what would be the best way for the audience to contact you for any comments, questions, requests, maybe even commission requests? You never know.

[Jake] You can DM my Instagram, Jake Jordan Composer. You can email me. If you know me personally, you can text me. I don't think I'm going to give out my phone number on the podcast, but you could definitely DM my Instagram, Jake Jordan Composer.

[Aaron] And so we're going to wrap this up in a minute. I'll give you the last note on this. Jake, if there is, you know, speaking to the audience, what would you say about life, composition, music, music theory, art, any of the topics we've talked about today?

[Jake] This is something I tell myself and would recommend to everybody else. Keep an open mind and be ready for change. As an artist, change is inevitable. You have to change. You have to be ready for change. And because I've kept an open mind, I've discovered more things musically than I otherwise would have if I had stuck to one certain style or one certain frame of thought, especially if you're in some type of writer's block or hitting a roadblock. Just listening to the most radical thing that even if you think that you wouldn't like, you can get an idea from that or even a reactionary idea.

[Aaron] There you go. That was great. Well, this brings us to the end of this episode of the Theorist Composer Collaboration Podcast. This has been the composer Jake Jordan and his piece, The Last of Sailing Ships for Concert Band. Thank you very much, Jake, for coming on to this program. It's been a great conversation.

[Jake] Thank you. And I'm more than excited to be added to the list of composers who have spoken on the Theorist Composer Collaboration.

[Aaron] Thank you for the annunciation with that. It's quite the growing list. Thank you.

[Jake] No problem.

[Aaron] Hello, this is Aaron again, and I want to thank you for listening to this episode of the Theorist Composer Collaboration. I also want to give another big thank you to Jake S. Jordan for coming on to the podcast and for sharing his piece, The Last of Sailing Ships.  Jake's contact info was listed both in the description of this episode, as well as on the corresponding contributor page on the TCC host website as well, and I would appreciate it if you could show him some support. I really enjoyed my conversation with Jake for a good many reasons. One of them being is, maybe one of the most controversial topics that we've brought up on the Theorist Composer Collaboration podcast before, is the whole idea of writing for non-Western instruments when you are outside of that culture and don't have that connection. And I want to give an additional thank you to Jake for being comfortable with discussing that very important and integral topic. Something I brought up to him before the recording of the episode and made sure he was comfortable talking about that, and he said something to the effect of, I was ready to talk about it the minute that I added the staff in finale, which is an attitude and preparation and respect for what you're doing that, in my opinion, at least every composer should have. On the subject of The Last of Sailing Ships, I know that Jake is just starting his doctoral studies, but that piece is so professionally and neatly crafted. You could probably put it past me that it's someone in their 40s and 50s with a full tenureship in composition somewhere. It truly is a masterful piece of work, and it was a lot of fun going almost step by step in the story of the ship from real life and in this piece on how it sank. So overall I think it was a really great conversation and a very awesome listen for myself at least. I want to again give a very, very special thank you to the composer Jake S. Jordan for coming onto the podcast and for sharing his piece The Last of Sailing Ships. For further updates and notifications on the Theorist Composer Collaboration, make sure to subscribe to our email listing on the homepage of our host website. And follow our Instagram and Facebook pages. Relevant links in the description. You can listen to future episodes through our host website, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, iHeartRadio, and YouTube, so make sure you subscribe to the platform of your choosing. Again, all relevant links are in the description. TCC episodes are posted weekly on Mondays, and don't miss our weekly blog posts which go live a few days after a new episode is added. I'm also excited to promote that our next featured composer is Jane Kozhevnikova and her piece Remember Me Then. There will be more information on this in the upcoming blog post and, of course, in the next full episode. Make sure to follow our social media accounts and relevant streaming platforms because you won't want to miss it. But until then, this is Aaron, and thank you for joining the TCC.