17. Remember Me Then - Jane Kozhevnikova

[Aaron] Welcome to the Theorist Composer Collaboration, a podcast interview series highlighting modern composers and their compositions. My name is Aaron D'Zurilla. I'm the host of this podcast and also a graduate music theory student at Florida State University. Today I will be talking with the composer Jane Kozhevnikova, who, alongside her piece Remember Me Then, is the featured guest for this episode. We discuss her background, the doctoral music experience, practicing, poetry, interdisciplinary composition, music academia, and much more. So, without further ado, this is an excerpt from Remember Me Then by the composer Jane Kozhevnikova, and welcome to the TCC. Again, the music you were just listening to is an excerpt from the piece titled Remember Me Then by the composer Jane Kozhevnikova, who is the featured guest on this week's episode. So, that leads me to, of course, welcome Jane herself to the podcast. How are you doing?

[Jane] Oh, good. How are you? 

[Aaron] I'm very good. I'm very happy to have you here. So, as we begin all episodes of this show, how about you go ahead and introduce yourself professionally, personally, academically, however you choose. 

[Jane] So, I want to start with, I guess, a little bit from the beginning by saying that my first music lessons began in Yekaterinburg. It's a city in Russia, about, I think it's fourth or fifth largest city, about one million and a half. And I started when I was four years old or so, and we had an old piano at home. So, that was my first instrument. I guess that's very common for a lot of people to start with whatever instrument they have at home. And back then, I could barely read music. I also didn't have any patience. And so, a lot of times my dad would put a score in front of me and I just pretended I was reading. I didn't really read back then. So, I kind of like improvised. I think eventually he noticed that, but it took him a while to figure it out. But that was also, I guess, my first composition experience, maybe my first album of original music or something. Later on, my solfege teacher in the music school, she encouraged a lot just different creative assignments. And I'd say, yeah, she inspired me writing a lot of early, easy pieces. She gave assignments to set poetry to music. She asked us to create some variations on a theme. And so, that was a lot of fun. Then, pass forward to the year 2003. I was done with my piano lessons by that time and I wanted to do something else. I started learning guitar. So, that gave me another creative outlet. I wrote songs, I played, sang them. And eventually, I realized that I'm not a professional guitar player or singer and that I want to go back more to the piano performance. And also, it's really hard to combine guitar and piano because for guitar, a lot of times you would need nails and for piano it's like cannot combine. So, let's see. Then, I decided to get more into jazz music about, I think, when I was 19. I started digging more into that area. So, everything before was more kind of traditional, standard, classical repertoire for piano. And so, it took me a while to get into jazz. Also, because, well, I was studying in Russia and jazz isn't really common music.

[Aaron] I was going to ask, what, you know, jazz is in many ways fundamentally American creation or as the result of America. What place does jazz have in, like, what role does it play in Russia?

[Jane] I'm not an expert in history, but as far as I remember from just what my teachers back there told me. So, what happened is jazz was basically prohibited for a long time. Well, not like prohibited, prohibited, but wasn't encouraged in Russia. And I remember my teacher told me that they had to get very far out of city where they could catch the waves, like radio waves from America. And so, that was the place that they could hear some jazz pieces and they had to transcribe a lot of music because there just wasn't any music scores available back then. So, then, fast forward to 90s, what happened is after the Soviet Union collapsed, a lot of people were just interested in anything American. And I'd say that was a tendency both in, I guess, overall education. So, for instance, I studied at school that was focusing a lot on English. And we celebrated all the British and American holidays that, you know, like Halloween, like St. Valentine's Day, that obviously wasn't in any way a part of Russian or like Russian traditions. And so, I think in 90s, again, the trend was to get more American and jazz was part of that. At the time that I started studying jazz, the only place that I could study it was a kind of what you would call a vocational college. So, it's like a pre-bachelor degree. But then, the education that they gave there was really like fundamental. So, I'd say it was a combination actually of classical music and jazz music, probably like half-half. And my piano teacher, whose name is Platon Gazzulli-Ridi, he has a Greek, I guess, part of background. So, he is a classical pianist, but he also studied jazz just basically by himself. So, he was the first person who introduced me to jazz really in depth. I think I did attempt to study jazz a little earlier when I was 15 years old or so. And it didn't work. It didn't click well with me, partly because my teacher wasn't really very encouraging, especially encouraging improvisation. So, I wanted to do improvisation. And he was like, no, here's the score. Here's the transcription. We're going to play that. Because I guess it's easier to learn something that's already available there. So, yeah. And then when I was 19 years old, that whole thing with jazz started for me. And of course, I had to learn a lot because it wasn't in any way a part of my background. Like I didn't grow up listening to jazz at all. 

[Aaron] I haven't heard very many people from Russia getting deeply into jazz over in Russia. That's just, that's nothing I've really heard of before. So, that's certainly unique to me.

[Jane] I would say there are a lot of jazz players in Russia. And I would say in the city I grew up in, in Yekaterinburg. So, there are, there is a jazz club that is at least 10 years old. I think it's more than 10 years now. Because back in 2011, 2012, I had my, like a small group, a jazz band. And we were the residents there and we played there. So, there were a lot of jazz musicians and there still are. And I'd say like big cities like Moscow, St. Petersburg, Yekaterinburg, like all of those cities, they have a lot of jazz musicians. It's easier to find jazz musicians there than, you know, in Gainesville. Well, I guess the size of the city. 

[Aaron] Well, yeah. Well, okay, let's talk about Gainesville. So, Jane and I, I wouldn't really say we know each other, but know of each other from University of Florida as from a handful of people who've also been on this podcast. Jane was and still is nearly done, which we're going to talk about soon, in her doctoral studies at University of Florida in composition when I was there completing my bachelor's. And so, how did a jazz improvisation-fueled Russian woman find her way over to the swamp in the middle of Florida, in the United States? How did you find your way over to Gator Nation?

[Jane] Yeah, it was quite a long way. So, again, I had to go, I have to go a little bit back in time. So, around 2010, 2011, I started that band that I just mentioned. And I've written a lot of pieces for this band because I wanted to play only or mostly original music. I kind of never got very much interested in simply playing jazz standards. I mean, I don't see anything wrong with that. But you know, the reason that jazz continued, was developing, is because a lot of musicians started writing their own music and that shaped jazz throughout the history. So, anyway, I was, at the time, I was dreaming to get into America because, well, that's the place to learn jazz. And so, at 2011, I auditioned for Berklee School of Music. A little I knew that that's obviously not the only one, not the only place to study jazz in America.

[Aaron] Certainly, most famous.

[Jane] Yeah, that's the most famous place. And when you are so out of this environment, that's the only place that you could know of. So, I auditioned, they did some audition in Europe. So, I picked Barcelona because, well, that's closer than America. It's still quite far from the city I was living in. But anyway, I got accepted and I specifically applied for music composition, for jazz composition. But as you know, the funding for undergrad students is basically non-existent. So, I didn't get the funding or I would say I didn't get enough funding to make it work. And so, I had to instead go to a university in Russia and I basically kept learning from the same music teacher that introduced me to jazz when I was 19 years old. So, then I thought, okay, well, maybe I should look at something in Europe, maybe that would be more accessible. And in Strasbourg, they have Academy of Music and they also have music composition and specifically jazz composition. So, it took me some time to learn French because, well, that was totally a new language for me. And in 2015, I did apply. I came to Strasbourg, I got accepted and same thing, no funding. So, that was another failure. 

[Aaron] I don't know if it's comforting or not that it's not just the United States, I guess, with poor funding. 

[Jane] Right. And you know, I don't know if maybe I just didn't know all the sources of funding that I could apply for because I applied only for the scholarship. I think it was French government scholarship and I'm sure that probably there are more sources. It's just I didn't have, I guess, access to just knowing of those. Anyway, then for two years from 2015 to 2017, me and at the time my partner, now he's my husband, we decided to change our life a little bit. And we spent some time in Europe for kind of long time living. And during that time, I applied to Fulbright scholarship. And so, finally, I got the funding to go study jazz in America.

[Aaron] Well, but you have after a while of no funding, Fulbright is certainly up there. That's quite the accomplishment to get that. 

[Jane] For sure. And that was really the last train, if you want to call it so, because at the time I was, I think that would be the last year that I could apply because they limit a master's degree, they limit until you are 30 years old. And I was 28 at the time or 29, something like that. So, I came to America when I was 29. And I also came, well, fun fact, I also came study jazz composition at the time that I had a composer's block. I didn't create anything for like two years. So, basically all that travel time, it gave me a lot of inspiration, but really I didn't have a reason to use that, like to write actually something on paper. And the thing that with Fulbright, they actually pick the school for you. 

[Aaron] Really? I didn't know that. That's interesting. So, they picked the University of Florida? 

[Jane] No. So, okay. I had, I listed, I think three or four choices. They didn't go with any of those. And they sent me to Western Michigan University, Kalamazoo. And when I got that confirmation, I was like, are you kidding me? Am I going to like some place that nobody knows in Michigan? You know, kind of coming from one cold weather, climate to another cold weather, climate. Well, I guess Michigan is a little bit warmer than the place that I grew up. But still it was kind of disappointment for me. But then when I came there, actually I realized that's a perfect place, at least for like for the beginning. And what they did is they allowed me to study with both composition department and jazz department. So, they didn't really have at the time jazz composition as a direction. But since they had both composition and jazz, they figured, well, why don't you take the best from both? And so, that was the long way to the United States.

[Aaron] Now, quite a long and winding road, if I will say.

[Jane] Right.

[Aaron] So, why did you decide on University of Florida? That almost sounds accusatory, like, oh, why did you pick that? You've been around the world at this point. Why Florida?

[Jane] So, when I finished or when I was, I guess, close to finish the master's degree in composition, I thought that I would like to go with a doctorate degree and that I wanted to eventually teach in some university. But then I kind of made this decision too late and I applied very last minute to the schools that were the top, you know, top 10 or whatever. And I really didn't do my homework of just looking what's available there and if what they offer actually match with what I want. And so, I wasn't the right person for them and they were not really right places for me, to be honest. And so, you know, I already told you a bunch of rejections that I got, like, when I didn't get funding. So, I didn't get to any of those universities and that was very disappointing. But so, I guess, the lucky part was that I could study for another master's degree at the same university, but then in piano, like focusing on the performance aspect. And so, I took another two years and I really focused on building my portfolio as a composer at the time that I was studying piano performance. So, it's kind of, you know, weird way to do that, but it worked out. And then that time, I tried to narrow down only to the universities that have somewhat diverse perspective of what music composition is. Because a lot of times you look at the faculty, you look at the students and it's kind of all the same. It's kind of all leaning towards very avant-garde, very, well, what they call avant-garde these days anyway, very noisy, if you dare. Electronic-like. And none of that was really what I was writing at the time and that I still write. So, I was trying just to pick the schools that either would have some sort of jazz people on the roster or, you know, something that is not just a contemporary standard music composition in the United States right now. And there are actually a lot of schools out there that don't do the mainstream, mainstream, if you call it that way. 

[Aaron] It's surprising how many there are. I agree. I will say about, so, University of Florida, I know what, obviously, I know what you mean because I was there. And as you know, even though I was not a composition major, the theory major is basically a light composition degree, essentially. I took up to Comp Skills 3, I took orchestration, I had some pieces performed, but I wasn't in the studio and I didn't take lessons. But I will say, it's funny to explain to people that I'm like, yeah, University of Florida, really small music, like it feels like a small school and they're like, what are you talking about? It's UF. Like, it's not a small school. I'm like, no, it's a small school within a big school, you know, because it's a smaller community. But you're right, it's a very eclectic group of individuals. Personally, I think from an undergraduate's point of view, I think it skews a little bit closer towards avant-garde. And like you said, that can mean a lot depending on who you're talking to. But I think they do skew a little bit more toward, or at least they push their students to be a little bit more explorative, which is, that's part of the learning process. That's not necessarily a bad thing. But UF certainly is a, I would almost say, surprisingly diverse music program. And so, you know, this is one of the benefits and I'm glad that you're on for many reasons, but one of them is you're a person of a lot more life experience than most of the people I've had onto this podcast. And that's not to blame anyone, it's not their fault that they haven't, but you've literally been around the world and you've seen a lot. And so, you can bring a perspective to different things. Like you said right there, in my mind, almost UF is quite radical in some of their avant-garde senses, but I'm sure the things that you've seen and experienced eclipse whatever I'm thinking about. So, you know, perspective is a lot and I'm glad to have someone who has a lot more life experience with those sort of things. And speaking of that, so we've got a good background of yourself, which is very diverse. And so, let's talk about your profile as a composer. So, what do we know so far? We know that heavy jazz influence or at least interest, interest in improv or at least an improvisational feel, even if not strictly improv, and also a bit of songwriting almost, or interest in what would be typical song structure. You talked about guitar and singing, singing a bit. But how would you define your own music? 

[Jane] So, yeah, like you mentioned, I have a variety of interests and trying to combine, like balance some sort of all of those. So, recently I've been kind of digging more into writing for voice. And so, I've done a lot of choral music, a lot of art songs. I've been doing opera, music theater works. And I think I'm probably the most at home in writing when it deals with some sort of text. And I can also say I'm probably obsessed with text that might come from the fact that my dad was a poet. So, I was like surrounded by poetic texts pretty much from my early childhood. And then even with instrumental music that I write, a lot of times there is some story behind that, like some narrative behind that. And I can say what I am not, I am not an abstract music writer, that's for sure. 

[Aaron] Can you define what does that mean to you by abstract music? 

[Jane] Well, like, I kind of just go and write, you know, sonata for piano number five. 

[Aaron] So, like, absolute music. Or some people use that term. 

[Jane] Yeah, that's a better term. 

[Aaron] I've said this a handful of times on the podcast now. Actually, I think when I say handful, it might have just been at the release of this episode, the past couple. But I always, not too, it's always difficult to say, you know, I don't enjoy or so on. I'm not saying that absolute music doesn't have value or there aren't phenomenal works. That's the majority of the classical canon. But I always as a music enjoyer, music consumer myself, or even a theorist, I find programmatic and storytelling based musics, things that have an intentionality from the composer to convey something, whether that's a specific meaning, a story or an overall atmosphere, I find that significantly more engaging, or at least for myself as a listener of music, more valuable. I'm not saying that the other stuff's invaluable. It's hard to say these things without getting tongue twisted. But I really can sympathize that. And I certainly enjoy that as well. Well, before we move on into the specifics of what we're looking at today, which is the piece Remember Me Then, you know, you're almost done with your doctoral work at University of Florida. So are you doing a DMA or a PhD?

[Jane] I'm doing a PhD.

[Aaron] So I've always heard that in composition, it's DMA. How is it different?

[Jane] I think at the University of Florida, they used to have mostly PhD and DMA was kind of more a recent thing that they started. I'm pretty sure I think it was Michael Papa, who was graduated last year, I think he was the first DMA composer. I might be wrong about that. But that's my understanding. 

[Aaron] Because at Florida State, it's all DMA. There's no PhD. Yeah.

[Jane] Mm hmm. I mean, it makes sense in terms of, I guess, in the fact that, you know, when you get DMA, it's more, you know, practical approach. So you focus more on the composition itself than on writing a huge paper to accompany that piece or whatever you create. With the PhD, with the dissertation that I'm working on, I wanted it to have kind of half half. So music theory and composition. 

[Aaron] Beautiful. So yeah. Can you, obviously you're not done yet or, you know, you would have doctor in front of your name, but what is your dissertation about? Or what part in the process are you at with that? 

[Jane] So I passed my qualifying exams this past spring. And I narrowed down the topic to text setting. In particular, I'm looking at Edna St. Vincent Millay, who is a great American, who was a great American poet. She was one of the first women to get, not the first, but one of those, to get the Pulitzer Prize in poetry. And I've set a lot of her texts, but then with the dissertation, I wanted to focus on the texts that I haven't set so that I didn't have any bias towards them. And I'm looking at several composers setting the same text. And the fun part is also that there are recordings available of herself reciting those texts. So my idea was to analyze her recitation and compare that with the way that composers, well, if you wish to call that recitation, like the way that they treat the text, like the way that they emphasize certain words more than others, the way that maybe they change the structure of the text, if at all. So I'm looking at, I think, three composers for one poem and at least three composers for another. I might go with more text setting to compare, but we'll see if I would need that or not. The last chapter of the dissertation would be about my text setting process, most likely not with Edna St. Vincent Millay, but with a contemporary librettist and playwriter. Her name is Germaine Shames, and we've written together quite a lot of things. We've done an operatic monologue together. I've set her text for a choir. I've also finished a chamber opera on her libretto. And so I wanted her to recite the poems that she wrote, and I'm going to set those two texts, but I'm not going to hear her recitation until I finish the text setting. Kind of again, comparing my recitation with her recitation and see how it plays together. 

[Aaron] That's really cool. You know, I'm, again, limited life experience, only being 22 in my case, but in all of the different doctoral works that I've seen, I always am partial to the ones that are interdisciplinary in terms of people's own interests. You have a connection and interest in poetry, obviously, and obviously music and composition. As you can probably tell from this podcast, I love talking about artistic process and being able to compare the artistic outcomes of a composer setting text and a poet setting text. That's a phenomenal idea. That's going to be a great piece of great work. That's actually a great segue into talking about the other than yourself, the subject of today's episode, which is the piece, Remember Me Then. And I say segue because we're going to talk about one of the most important parts of this piece and what makes it so significant is that the implementation of poetry, namely that you didn't set, well, you did set a text, you set your own text. You wrote a poem by the same name, Remember Me Then, to go along with the vocals within the piece. Well, I feel awkward almost saying this, but I thought it would be weird if I gave a reading of it, especially when you're the poet yourself. So can you give a reading of your poem, Remember Me Then?

[Jane] In the bubbling water, in the sea of loneliness, In the bright lights of a yellow star, In the long black night, in the pink daybreak, In the dry soil at the top of the rock, Remember the song we sang over and over, Remember that fine and simple sound, Remember me then.

[Aaron] Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Before I get into any of my observations of that, can you talk about the poem itself? What inspired you in your program notes, you detailed a specific process that you chose to adapt it and some of your poetic inspirations for it. So can you tell us about that? 

[Jane] Yes. So this piece was written as a collaboration with the Harn Museum and with the UF Dance Department, and each of the composers who wrote for this project wrote a piece based on the work of art, actually, from the exhibition at Harn. The name of the exhibition was Reuse, Repurpose. And my initial drive for this piece was the artwork by Kiki Smith, who is a contemporary artist. I think she was born in Germany, but she's an American artist. So her artwork that inspired me was called Touch. And as a part of the installation, there was a poem by Henri Cole that is also named Touch. The poem by Cole is rather dark. I could give you a couple of opening lines. 

[Aaron] Go for it. Go for it. 

[Jane] In a hospital morgue, I lay in a pine box.

[Aaron] Okay, okay. That opening line. Point taken. 

[Jane] Yes. First of all, it's very dark. Second, it's kind of like, it's hard to comprehend because wait, if I'm laying in a hospital morgue in a pine box, then I'm probably dead. If I'm dead, why I even talk? Yes. Right. So it's kind of really weird, like very contrasting worlds, or like that duality of life and death that happens together in the same poem. So I couldn't really set that poem. That would be too dark for me. Plus it would be, you know, a copyright issue. I would have to reach out to Henri Cole. I would need to get a permission and all of that. And nothing wrong with that. I've worked with a lot of contemporary poets. It's just that I didn't think that it would be an appropriate poem for me to set. So what I did is I used the cut-up technique, which is basically the idea is that you use the poem and you cut all the words in it and you pick maybe something that you like and you rearrange them. And that gives it a totally different meaning. So basically you create a totally different poem just using the same words. Well, not of the words, but, you know, some of the words that you picked. And so I think in the program notes, you can also see how that cut-up poem, it kind of looks like an artwork in a new way.

[Aaron] Yeah. And if you don't mind, I'm going to put the poem itself in the description of the episode. I'm not very familiar in the slightest with poetry, poetic styles, or even techniques. But I do have a question. I was wondering why you did this and you enunciated it differently when you were reciting it. So the full title is Remember Me Then. Why is then its own line at the end? Why is that separate? 

[Jane] Because in the original poem, then was taken from some line where it was capitalized. And so I didn't change that. Okay. I just put it on a new line, but I think it created a nice break before we get to that then part. And actually, I think the whole time through the poem, there isn't any, you know, sense of death or any like end or anything up until you get to that then at the end. 

[Aaron] We're going to talk about it soon, but you illustrate that in the music as well, as you saw, or picked up on that a bit in what I sent to you. And so did this poetry come first? Like you created this poem with the intention of setting it to music, correct? 

[Jane] Correct. Yeah. So the poem came first. Yes. 

[Aaron] And so as you said, it was premiered and done through collaboration at the Harn Museum, a place that myself and anyone who's gone to University of Florida has been to a good number of times. I don't think I actually went to that exhibit. I don't believe. Well, I moved, so I probably, yeah, I didn't get to see it. There was a specific ensemble, the Black Box Ensemble, which are the people who performed it. I remember you saying in the preliminary meeting that this is an ongoing collaboration with the University of Florida Composition Studio. How did that all come about? 

[Jane] So there are two graduate composers who pretty much started this collaboration. And so this year was the second year of doing that. So the first year we had New Quintet, which is an ensemble from New York. And then next year we're going to work with Orange Road, which is a string quartet. And so the two students are Daniel Townsend and Brandon Sweeney. So I guess all the credits go to them and also to Dr. Joan Frosch with the dance department. So basically Dan had a lot of collaborations with dancers while he was here. He just graduated, or I guess will graduate in summer. He already defended, so he's officially a doctor now. 

[Aaron] Congratulations to Dr. Townsend. I know he follows the Instagram, so hopefully he'll hear this. And you just queued in another important element. There's a lot of background building for this piece. Another element to this, which unfortunately can't be reflected in a podcast medium, of course, but there were dancers. And what I believe is interpretive dance, again, not an area of performance art that I'm familiar with, the technical terms of such. So was the dancing, how did that work? Did that come with the black box ensemble? Was that the Harn Museum? Was that something that you had envisioned? How does the dancing element fit into that? 

[Jane] So again, that was the thing planned by Dan and Brandon, so Dan Townsend and Brandon Sweeney. And the idea was to collaborate with the UF dance department. And so in particular, there was a dance class. And so they created that interpretive dance as a part of their class. 

[Aaron] Did you have any input into what they did with your piece? 

[Jane] Yes and no. Yes, we did meet with them. And as soon as we finished the works, we brought them during their class and played with a midi, which is, of course, doesn't sound any near to live performance, especially if you use any improvisation techniques in your work or any non-notated or if you use graphic notation, you barely can do any good media representation, or it wouldn't be the same as the live performance. So we came to their class and we talked about the piece. We talked about what inspired us. We talked about the artwork. In my case, I also talked about the poem that I wrote and how it came together. So I think what they did use is that idea of cutting. And I'm not a dancer, so I don't know how much it did translate into the dance, but I think at least they wanted to create some movement that then would be cut and paste it, if you wish. 

[Aaron] Yeah, so I wanted to ask, from the people that I've talked to, one of the most magical elements of being a composer is sitting in the audience and then listening to your work after all the many tens of hours of writing it, conceptualizing it, collaborating rehearsals and all that. But there's an extra layer to this. What was it like sitting and, of course, listening to the performance, but then watching someone physically interpret? It's multi-layered here because it's not just your music, it's also your text. So what was that experience like?

[Jane] Oh, it was a delight. That was pretty much the first time I saw everything together. We did have a dress rehearsal the day before, but we kind of, just because of the time limitation, we did start and stop. We didn't do the whole thing. I knew to an extent what to expect, but just being there, and I guess the fact that the audience is there. I remember myself taking the video over the phone and my hand wanted to shake that badly because it was so exciting to see that. So yeah, anyway, it was a great experience. And I'd say I still have a hard time of not performing my music, you know, because in jazz, a lot of times, whatever you write, well, you're the performer as well, unless you write like big band work, then well, maybe yes, someone else is performing that. But a lot of times you are both composer and performer. With a quote unquote classical composition, we have that experience to give away our music to someone else to interpret. So yeah, having a dance in there that added a new layer of interpretation that I cannot affect much other than just, you know, giving them my music and see how they can react, how they can respond to that. 

[Aaron] Yeah, that's a level of control or letting go of control that I would personally be very fearful of. I suppose that's one of the many reasons why I'm not a composer. But anyhow, so there's one more before we get talking about the notes on the page, there is another element to this that is, again, a bit different, is that you include on the score an additional, an option, an additional theatrical element that is maybe not integral. You'll talk about that in a second, but is another option for performance that's separate from dancing. And it's in like a mini paragraph at the top of the first page of notation. And I'm going to go ahead and read it for everyone right now. What the score says, "an optional theatrical element can be added if performed with a conductor before the performance musicians sit in chairs like mannequins and awkward poses trying not to move conductor touches each one of them with the baton in parentheses like a wizard before their entrances to unfreeze them in the order of the musicians appearances in the piece towards the ends of the piece conductor does the same thing trying to or does the same thing to freeze the musicians lastly conductor unfreezes everyone at the end so that they can continue living their lives as musicians." So there's a, there's a couple of things in there. I'm good. I'm there's some levity to that. There's some lightheartedness because you put it parentheses like a wizard. And of course, at the end, so they can continue living their lives. I'm glad you thought of that. So they're not stuck there. But what, what, why did you include that? And to you, what does that add to the, a possible performance? 

[Jane] So I think that added that kind of contemporary aspects because when we had a meeting with like online meeting with the Black Box, Leonard mentioned that they like doing something theatrical and actually at the same performance, Dan Townsend wrote a piece where he and the singer and another musician would have to kind of go in a certain way around. And so that also looks like a theater. The reason that we decided not to use that for this particular performance is because there was a dance so that there was already too many visual elements. 

[Aaron] That would be a little bit, that would be a lot going on.

[Jane] Right. And so we wanted to focus on the dance more and have music more kind of as a background, if you wish. But I think I still want for the live performance, if that happens on stage, I think that would be still cool to have a performance with that element. I think the theater element came from the fact that I did work at the theater as a musician for like four years. So I do like some, you know, unusual solutions. And yeah, I think that came out in this piece.

[Aaron] We've done a lot of background, justifiably. There's a lot to say about all that, but let's get into the notes that are on the page. Right off at the bat, right off at the beginning of the piece, or, you know, the introductory time of the piece, you have a big mix of different sonic developments. The very beginning has what I described in my notes to you, this D Phrygian sound with the Glockenspiel. It's ominous. It's almost like a death, like a church bell death toll. That E flat sliding down to D with the lowered seventh is an iconic modal sound. And then, but we very quickly with the strings, with the airy timbre, go into, on a technical level, it's not like looking at how you constructed it, but it sounds post-tonal serialist, mid-20th century sound. Far removed from a modal, there's much less pitch centricity. There's an airiness and imitation between different voices, a very thin texture where that freezing and unfreezing would come in, as you were saying, one by one, practically speaking, so the conductor's not running around hitting a bunch of people at once, you know, like a wizard, of course. But then, pretty naturally, intervallically, we land into a much more tonal landscape. It's  almost like someone snapped their fingers, of course not, because there's not an exact moment where we go from a lack of centricity to centricity. I don't think there's an exact moment, but we land in tonal centers, and then when the voice starts singing, and when the mezzo-soprano, we're in a much more grounded tonal landscape, something that I would describe as late, late romantic writing, almost Broadway, with which we're going to talk about the vocal writing in a minute. But, you know, what I just described is only about a minute of music. A lot happens within a minute. And so, can you talk about this? What are your reactions to some of the things that I'm saying about these, because I don't want to put words on your notes that don't reflect, and what was your thinking with this mix? 

[Jane] So it's always interesting to see how other people react to my music, and I guess especially it's interesting when people explain me what I did, because I didn't necessarily think about those things that you mentioned. 

[Aaron] Really?

[Jane] I guess part of the reason is because maybe those things are so integrated that I don't have to think, oh, and now I'm going to use the Phygrian modes here and there, and now I'm going to use that here and there. Broadly speaking, that whole introduction is a long prolongation of D, which is a tone, and it's a dominance to G minor, where we're going then.

[Aaron] Okay, can you tell I'm not a Schenkerian? I didn't pick up on that at all.

[Jane] Well, okay, I did have an introduction to Schenkerian analysis. So, yeah, but overall, I'd say I would treat it as that, and all of those, what you call, like, kind of surrealistic or whatever, those phrases, those were kind of improvised like cadenzas, and I'm pretty sure that I improvised most of them. I mean, I improvised them in different ways and maybe then picked what I liked, and that ended up being in the score, but I wanted them to sound very freely like improvised sounds. And I can explain that, again, with a jazz background. I can also comfortably say that I'm mostly a tonal composer, and that's where I feel at home. And I still did some pieces that use tone rows that kind of breaks the tonal idioms, but mostly I use pretty much tonal and jazzy idioms.

[Aaron] This is probably the first interview that I've done where someone said something, you know, you said that the entire introduction is a prolongation of D. As you were talking, I was going back and studying the score again, and damn it, it is. It's not necessarily a, you know, I made the joke about a Schenkerian prolongation, but it's not quite like that, but it always returns to D in some way, and it's essentially an extended decoration around it. Like you said, those improvised bits, it's interesting that you said that those are improvised because in those little fragments, the soloistic cadenzas, because when I looked at it, I thought, oh, she must be using sets or using different interval class ideas to go between, because it looks so intervalically informed. But I think it's almost funny that it's just as plain as, you know, like you said, those ideas are probably so ingrained in you that that might be what it is, but that's not what your intentionality was. That's interesting.

[Jane] I think a couple of spots I do refer the melody that will come later, and then I think in terms of the harmony there, I think I stay, so it's, yeah, it's D, but it's kind of with that extended, if you call it D7 with, you know, the jazzers. Altered 9, so there is both flat and sharp 9, so there is E flat, there is F, but there is also F sharp, because that's the third. So if you want to go in that nerdy area. 

[Aaron] Oh, well, I mean, this nerdy area is where I go to class every day, essentially. So yeah, okay, well, fascinating. This is one of them.

[Jane] That's actually brings the point that I wish more music theorists actually asked composers what they did. Because a lot of composers might say something differently than what music theorists analyzed. Yeah, that might be informed by some programmatic things that might be informed by some, like, you know, special things that composers did on purpose, but a lot of times, that's not the way that they mistake. 

[Aaron] That, yeah, that's well, we're going to get into it a bit, but there is there is like a an allergic reaction to new music when it comes to music theorists and academia, which we'll talk about that. But, you know, to reanalyze the intro bit, if the whole thing is a prolongation of D and the beginning of the melody is that I'm looking at the key signature, and I'm also thinking about your jazz influence and how the very beginning has some modal influence too. Now, I'm not thinking about jazz modes almost I'm thinking of like church modes. So what does the note D have in relationship to flats in the key signature? Probably the closest thing I can think of, people laugh at me that this might not be close, but this is where my head goes, is with two flats in the key signature, you have two options for a regular tonal key, which is either B flat major or G minor and then D is the dominance of G minor. So it's almost it's, you know, like you're using the plagal mode of G minor. So that's, that's where my head goes for that. And then of course, you have the plagal ideas. So cool. See, one of the many reasons why I love doing this podcast is right there. And like you just said, isn't it nice to ask a composer and get an answer before they're 95 years old or very dead? Yes. Moving on into the piece, there's many times in these interviews where I bring up a certain section, and I don't really have a question because I just like it. I don't really have much to say about the whole vocal texture. It's just so beautiful. Like I said, it's late, late romantic sounding because you have some complex harmonies and decorations. But it's, it's so palatable and smooth and romantic sounding. It's almost like Broadway with how just palatable and infectious the melodic line is. I think I read back in the questions I sent you yesterday, and I wrote the line that "it melts in your ears like chocolate in your mouth", which that's a interesting way to put it on my part. But can you just talk about you said that you find a lot of interest, especially recently in writing for a text and vocal works. Can you just talk about what you were thinking with the mezzo soprano part? 

[Jane] Yeah. I mean, I didn't think anything specific. I just, I tried to make a frame for the text and I tried to. 

[Aaron] How do you go about do you like make, do you make goalposts? Do you like, like tent pole, like, I need to cadence here. This part's going to be faster. This part's going to be slower. Do you sit at the piano and like sing along with it? How do you adapt that text with it? 

[Jane] Usually with the text, I break it in certain sections. And a lot of times it's just the text itself tells you where to break it because of the punctuation, because of the, I don't know, the metric material or something different is happening in the middle section. So with the opening section, I wanted to create rather static, I'd say, rather static music. I mean, there is that back and forth between the voice and the violin, but overall there is not much motion going on. And then once we get to the to the middle section or what I call the middle section, that starts with "remember". I wanted to create a more moving texture. Kind of if you try to remember something, it's like you have the, I don't know, like a wheel of, you know, events. It's almost like sometimes you cannot remember the whole scene, but like there are those tiny moments and they're like spiraling once you start remembering something. So I wanted to create that motion with the viola part. And overall, you know, with a key change, with a shift that happens there, with the voice having more, I guess the dynamics rises there, so it becomes more emotional there. 

[Aaron] And I have to, I'm going to interject, what sense were there, as you saw in my notes to you, this may not be true now that you know, you've said that you weren't necessarily thinking of a super grand scheme with it, but I suppose this is the curse for anyone writing the words remember me with a mezzo-soprano voice, but and also you said it had to do with like death and remembrance and so on. You have to think of "Dido's Lament" a little bit with that. I don't know if that clicks for you or not, but that's just something that appeared in my head. 

[Jane] No, it didn't appear in my head at all. And the other thing is that, well, the word itself or two words, they were again cut from the poem by Henri Cole. And then there was also a poem that I said before by Christina Rossetti named "Remember". And the opening line is "remember me when I'm gone". And so for that setting, I also wanted to repeat it several times. And that was a choral setting, but yeah, I see what you're saying that you kind of have that curse of it. 

[Aaron] Yeah, again, it's the words remember me are not owned by Henry Purcell, but you know, it's one of those things in music history that just pop up. Anyways, continue with what you were talking about. 

[Jane] Right. So we were creating that tension and that building up towards the climax. Remember the song is saying over and over. And I believe that's the highest note in the whole piece. And then from there, we kind of started tearing it down with less texture, with longer notes, and we prepare for that ending section where the text ends. 

[Aaron] And basically, yeah, well, let's let's talk about where that text ends, because it has to do with what you were talking what we were talking about earlier with how you enunciated the word then at the last line, it feels like the just the voice the life of the piece just evaporates when it lands on then it's like it ceases to exist. It's such a, for how colorful and flowing and beautiful the vocal line is it's such a almost dud of an ending compared to how just almost charismatic the whole piece is with its with its texture, and then it just ends. And then we're left with that more fragmented feeling from the introduction. And I'm assuming from everything we've talked about and from the score, that that thematically goes with remembrance and passing and so on. 

[Jane] Yeah. And again, we we don't get a sense of death in this piece up until that. Yeah, that last word. Yes, because before we we don't even know like, why do we even talk about those moments when we sang together or whatever that the most of the poem talks about. And then right when we hear that word then, I wanted to give a moment to listener while there is that fermata, like that grand pause, and I wanted them to kind of present understand, okay, so that was the whole goal. 

[Aaron] I think you were very successful in that for many reasons. One thing I do whenever I get sent items for the show is I always listen to the audio file by itself without reading or looking at anything. And once that I was listening to it, a beautiful melody, so on, so on, so on. And then once that happened, I thought, oh, it's over. Like, it didn't feel like it should have been over almost going with everything. And "then" it's just such an awkward word to end on, even in the poem, which is what I was pointing out earlier, and especially with it being capitalized, you know, the effect of that makes it feel like there should be more, but there isn't. And that's like, that's a remorseful, that's a sad thing, really, you know, 

[Jane] Isn't that the, you know, the whole philosophy of life, like, it is never enough time. Like, it always ends unexpectedly. And yeah, in a way that captures that. 

[Aaron] You kind of held over some of the dark elements from your inspirations, but maybe not clouded them, but you shrouded it a little bit more in its, in almost an innocence, and then it gets dropped on you at the end.

[Jane] Yeah, and then the ending is basically the same idea as was introduced at the beginning, but then maybe more fragmented.

[Aaron] So we've essentially thematically gone through this piece, which has been a very great time. And before we move on to the final part of the podcast, is there anything else you want to talk about specifically to "Remember Me Then", either the poem or your piece of work? 

[Jane] I guess one thing is that I encourage listeners to check out the video, because that might give a different perspective. It's available on YouTube if you search for "Remember Me Then". And then another thing is that I want to mention is, well, the instrumentation of this piece is not very traditional. And because of that, I'm thinking of making different arrangements of this piece, just to make it more accessible to more people, to more performers. So if anyone is listening to this podcast and they want some sort of arrangement that would work for their performers, just let me know. I'm a fan of reusing material in a lot of ways, so I would be happy to make an arrangement.

[Aaron] Excellent. Excellent. In the final segment of this podcast, so I'm going to broadly give you this question. You can take it however you want. We've gotten quite a good look into your life and how you think about music for a good part. But what does music mean to you? And I'm going to add also with all the twists and turns that you've had in your life experience, why music? You know, why not chemical engineer, carpenter? I don't know. What does music mean to you?

[Jane] I guess I didn't mention the story about how my parents didn't want me to pursue music professionally.

[Aaron] Uh oh.

[Jane] Yeah. But yeah, once I graduated from high school, I wanted to pursue, I wanted to go for music in college and my parents said, well, that's not a real job. And they wanted me to do something more ground to earth. And I did my first degree in IT and I absolutely hated it. Well, okay, maybe hated it is strong words, too strong of a words. I still finished it. I even worked a few months in a company, in an office, in traditional setting. And I just realized that I cannot waste my life in this way. It just, it's not for me. And more and more, I started to take more jobs related to music. And that was the reason that I had to do another degree now in music. So that's why it took me longer time than normally it takes people, you know, to go from, especially if you know already what you're doing, like to go from school to bachelor's degree to master's degree to doctorate degree. And a lot of people like are done by what 25 years old. 

[Aaron] Yeah, you know, it's, I'm sure it wasn't fun for yourself. Everyone wants to get to where they want to go as quickly as possible. 

[Jane] But maybe, or maybe you can actually embrace more what you want to do. Yes. Well, if it takes you longer time to get there. 

[Aaron] Yeah. Well, you know, I think your story is inspirational, especially comforting to a lot of people. Maybe this is just a young person thing, or maybe it's an American thing, but at least in my sense with my colleagues and so on, the idea of taking a year doing something else, either you have, you need to take a break for financial, mental, emotional, family reasons, or diverting yourself a little bit or just taking a little bit of extra time with your degree for whatever reason. There's a culture of anxiety around that. Like that's even for myself, you know, the idea of not getting all the degrees done as fast as possible and then getting a job as fast as possible, regardless of what's going on or whatever, is a scary idea. Maybe that's a young person thing. Maybe that's an American thing. I'm not so sure. But it's nice to hear from someone who has walked the walk, talked the talk, took their time and is still perfectly fine with what they're doing. So in many ways, I think that should be comforting to people that it's okay.

[Jane] I hope so, yeah. And it's never late to start doing what you want to do, what you love to do. Yeah, it has a lot of, you know, advantages and disadvantages. I mean, getting in the field that I wanted to do when I was 29, and that was the first time I started taking composition lessons. By that time, I already was too old for all the young composers' opportunities, because most of them ended when you were 25. So it was kind of annoying. But that taught me to create opportunities by myself. I think if I had maybe more opportunities available for me at the time, maybe I wouldn't be as productive, as creative, as collaborative. I really do like collaborate with many people. 

[Aaron] Indeed. Indeed. I'm sure. I wish I could relate in a bunch of ways, but I try to with all my guests, but all I can say is just wow, just wow, you know, to yourself. You know, I've had my own personal hurdles, but not as that. But I congratulate you on your successes. And so, you know, I especially want to focus on this question, because you are someone with such experiences, and who went into this a bit later than some people would. And so you're going to have a lot more of a nuanced and I would say mature view on our different fields than myself and a lot of other people would. What is your opinion of the current landscape of composition? And you can take that however you want. 

[Jane] Right. Well, I kind of talked a little bit about that already when I talked about the hardship of finding the school that would be appropriate for me. A lot of composition programs kind of look very like same. They kind of do the same things. And it's really hard to get anywhere if you're doing something differently.

[Aaron] Give me a... Maybe you can't give an example, because that may not be professional, but give a hypothetical. Like illustrate what you mean by that. 

[Jane] Okay. So there is, I think, particular bias against the choral music, like choral music composition. Interesting. When it comes to composition in the academia. Like if you notice how we teach composition, we barely get to any vocal works, or we barely talk about setting text to music, we barely talk about nuances of human voice and writing for voice. And even the way that orchestration books work, I went through a lot of them actually just to figure out how many of them even mentioned the voice as an instrument. And at most you would find the register, like the lowest note that a soprano can do, the highest note the soprano can do. Well, that's not really an accurate in any way. It doesn't give you specifics of how to write for soprano voice. And yeah. 

[Aaron] I want to say it's funny that you're saying all that because I wouldn't expect you to remember, but at this point it would have been three years ago was my first day at University of Florida. And my first class ever at UF was arranging with Dr. Lee, which- 

[Jane] Okay, then I do remember that. 

[Aaron] Okay. Well, you were the graduate assistant for that class. And as you were talking about orchestration books that maybe don't have so much vocal technique in them, I was looking over at my bookshelf right behind me at the Samuel Adler, The Study of Orchestration textbook which, no insult to Mr. Adler in any of that sense. But I'm thinking about that class, because Dr. Lee's instruction, I remember you contributed to that as well, which clearly is because of your own expertise, we did vocal techniques first. And that was the, out of all five years of my formal instruction in academia, that month was the only time I've ever gotten instruction on vocal techniques. And it was incredibly difficult and a lot more nuanced than I remember. And I remember we didn't actually start using the textbook until the string unit. We didn't even use it for the vocal unit. So I remember that. 

[Jane] Yeah. And that's a good exception from the rule, I would say. I'm really grateful that Dr. Lee actually spent some time on talking about writing for choir. I wouldn't say that we spent the whole month on that. I think it was just one assignment. 

[Aaron] It felt like a month. 

[Jane] Okay. But yeah, that's the only time really that people are exposed to that. For my composition skills, because I did teach the composition skills for this past semester and I had to come up with a syllabus, I had to come up with the whole thing for it. Because every professor had their own opinion on how the composition skills are supposed to be taught. And so as I do have the background of writing for voice and writing for choir, I thought, well, I do want to give them at least one assignment of specifically writing for voice, of specifically collaborating with a living poet and getting all the nuances of, okay, how do I even approach a poet? How do I even make a collaboration agreement? How can I make all of that legal? Then how do I approach the text setting? Because a lot of times people just like start right away, okay, here are the notes, here are the words, but they don't necessarily work on the text on their own. Because you have to go through the text several times. You have to feel it. You have to feel the pulse. You have to feel the words, the emphasis, where are the main words in the text. And people somehow think that's all easy and just like skip that. 

[Aaron] Yeah, that's why I'm saying it felt like a month because I was not prepared for the level of work that you're saying. The level of extra depth that you need to go into to a text medium. And also I just remembered, again, praises to Dr. Lee in his comp skills two class. We actually did have an extended unit on different kinds of vocal techniques and IPA language. And I remember that's also where we...

[Jane] Okay, well, that's wonderful.

[Aaron] Where I first learned about, oh, two of my favorite contemporary pieces of all time, Partita for Eight Voices, of course, Caroline Shaw, and then Julie Wolf's Steel Hammer. Great vocal based works. Oh man, Steel Hammer is just... Anyway, both of those are phenomenal. Interesting, I've never heard, as you know, I'm relating to what you're saying, but I've never heard that from someone that there is an in composition, a bias against vocal. Why do you think that is? 

[Jane] I'm not sure. I think maybe because most of the composers are instrumentalists. I mean, rarely you would have a composer who are, who is a singer. I mean, there are of course examples, but yeah, I think most of us are instrumentalists. And unless we had some good collaborations with singers, I think rarely we get into vocal writing. And I wouldn't get into vocal writing myself. I mean, other than those songwriting experience with the guitar, I wouldn't probably write anything for voice if there wasn't an ensemble in Kalamazoo directed by Joel Snyder. And so he just gave me an opportunity to write for them and he performed that piece with the ensemble. And that was the pretty much the drive for the rest of my vocal writing, because it wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't get in depth if that didn't happen, if he didn't give me the opportunity. And since then we like collaborated together on a lot of stuff. I've written a lot of choral pieces specifically for that ensemble. I've written a lot of pieces for Joel because he's a baritone singer. And so I would say that's a happy accident. 

[Aaron] Sure, sure. And before we move on to the dreaded topic of music theory, I wanted to ask, you've talked about it a little bit, especially after coming to grad school. I've seen more and more, see, I'm American, as you can probably tell from the flatness of my voice and the difficulty of you coaching me with how to pronounce your last name, which I apologize again. There are, I don't particularly know what the problem is or even the solution, but I see a good number of international, especially student, international graduate students, especially when English is not their primary language, who struggle inordinately, just massively in the university system. Part of that is probably the language barrier, but it seemed in my, again, 22 year old opinion, who's only gone to three colleges, one of them being a community college, there doesn't always seem to be very adequate support for people who are not American in graduate systems. And I'm not experienced or knowledgeable enough to say exactly what the solution is or even what the precise problem is. But all I know is, is I see my colleagues and other people online who are going through an awful time, who are dealing with the same struggles and stresses that myself and any other American colleagues are, but they're dealing with a whole other level of issues. Whether that be funding because of US laws with what is allowed or not allowed. What are some of your experiences with that and what do you think could be better to help support academics and aspiring academics? 

[Jane] I can tell you from my experience that my very first year at Western Michigan University, I really didn't do anything other than studying and doing just the course load. And I thought that I'm expected to do just that because that was what I would be expected to do in Russia. I have never in my lifetime there gone to any conference, I didn't do any research other than just show up to the class and do whatever you're assigned to do. And because of that, when I came here, I didn't even know that I'm expected to do that. I didn't even know that that's the way to find your collaborators. I didn't know that that's your way to start networking. I didn't know that there is a huge culture of presentation in America that is not a part at all of life in many countries. Like my very first year, gosh, I had a severe anxiety of just showing up in front of people and talking to them. I feel comfortable playing piano in front of people because I'm doing that for years, but I never had that much experience of presenting my work and talking about it in front of people. And so that all that just like doesn't create, I guess, fulfilling conditions to create something, to do research, to participate in different events outside of the school. Because well, first you might deal with language barrier, you might have culture shock. And on top of that, nobody really tells you, well, hey, actually, in addition to that, you could do that and that and that and that. And a lot of times there isn't a transparent, I guess, access to funding. And unless you ask about that, somehow a lot of times people just don't tell you about that. 

[Aaron] And how would you know to ask about it if you don't know that? Yeah. 

[Jane] Right. That's what I'm saying. So that's why I think my first degree in the States, it wasn't as productive as the next degree. And it wasn't nearly as productive as my time during the doctorate degree, because I didn't even know that I can do that. I can have access to a lot of opportunities. I can create those opportunities. I can go to events and collaborate with other people there. I think the solution, well, that would involve a lot of people to change that. But I think in many ways, what I try to do is I try to let my fellow international students know about those opportunities. If there was an international student who would let me know about that, maybe I would get to that faster. 

[Aaron] Understandable. So equitable access to information, essentially. That is, I think that's not I think that's a very reasonable request. You know, I can't believe we're at this point in how progressive in big quotes the arts are. And we still have issues like that within our own fields. But I think that thank you for sharing your experience with that and your perspective with them. So Jane, we're coming to the end. But I would be amiss if we did not talk about music theory a little bit, which we kind of we kind of have here and there. And especially because I'm trying to think, well, perhaps some of them have. But you were one of the few people I've had on the podcast that has manned a or helmed a music theory course yourself or been in front of the classroom, especially grading papers. I don't know if you know this, but did you remember that I was a music theory tutor at University of Florida? 

[Jane] Yeah, I do remember that. 

[Aaron] Yes, yes. And I remember and not bad things at all, but many of I dealt with many of your students and so on. So I know that you were very involved with that. There were actually a good handful of times where I said, you know, to some students, I shouldn't have done this. But like part of the gimmick of what I proposed to Dr. Pellegrin was if it's 11:30 p.m., they can call me on Instagram. And, well, they really called. They really took me up on that offer. Okay. Talking to students at like midnight. And I say to them, you know, my friend, I you probably need to talk to Jane. I really don't. It's like midnight on a Tuesday. I can't I can't help you right. You live, you learn. But what is your experience personally in the field of music theory? And what's your opinion on it? 

[Jane] Okay, so I think it would make sense again to maybe compare it to the experience with music theory that I had in Russia. And again, I would have to go back to that lady who taught solfège to me. And she was very demanding. I mean, some people just couldn't tolerate her. But I credit to her a lot of skills that I got from that and a lot of practical skills, a lot of creative skills that I got from that. Like, if you can imagine us were like eight or nine years old, and she would force us to do three part inventions. Bach with singing one voice and playing the other two. 

[Aaron] Oh, my goodness.

[Jane] She trained us. She had a sort of like a system. And I think because of the system that she used, I got almost perfect pitch. Like if you play notes for me on the piano, like I can tell right away what notes you played. I still don't think it's a perfect pitch. I still think it's kind of really good relative pitch. But I mean, it's just something that I really credit to her. Her favorite phrase was work until you get the nose coming, the blood coming over your nose. Oh, my goodness. That's a very, you know, brutal thing to tell kids. 

[Aaron] But that really adds to like the stereotype of a Russian teacher. 

[Jane] Oh, yeah. She was very tough. But again, I am thankful to all the creative assignments that she gave and all of the very, I guess, non-traditional way of teaching music theory. So then I can't really tell much about my experience with music theory at the university, because that was my second degree. And at the time I worked, I don't know, like five jobs at a time. And I barely attended those classes because I was like, I know that anyway. And I probably know it better than the professor then why do I even show up to that? So I did show up like for, I don't know, exams and whatnot and did the assignments. But I didn't care about that much because they didn't really tell me anything new because of how high the level I received. The level was from that teacher of mine that I received back in childhood. 

[Aaron] Yeah, you got the Beethoven treatment.

[Jane] Pretty much. Yeah. So and then I remember the time that I studied as a graduate assistant at Western Michigan University. And that was with the music theory one freshman coming, somehow it's always 8:30 in the morning. In any university music theory one is 8:30 in the morning. People hate that. 

[Aaron] And they really threw you into music theory one right away? 

[Jane] Yeah. Well, I didn't teach it. I just assisted with this. 

[Aaron] Oh, okay. Okay. I thought, I thought, oh, okay, that's better.

[Jane] That would be too much. But what shocked me is that, you know, I had that image of music theory being a very applicable and practical thing to do. Like you can write variations, you can write songs, you can apply all of them, all of the rules that you're on. But then you come to the music theory class and you get all the written assignments and they're not creative at all. Like, I don't know how, how can we be so not creative with music theory? And if you think of the way that we teach the modes, for instance, since we talked a little bit about that. Well, basically we just give that topic in probably like a week and we give them all those seven modes and force them to write those modes from different notes and, you know, fix accidentals or whatnot. But how is that applicable? Like they would forget about those modes, I don't know, less than months after that. Why don't we instead spend time just showing examples in the music that have those modes? Why don't we make a creative assignment to write a melody with those modes, to do something cool with those modes, like to apply them in real life. Maybe to analyze a piece that has the using of one of the mode, maybe more than one. And it's just, I don't know, I think music theory is way more fun than we, the way it started in the academia. 

[Aaron] So I would 100% agree. You know, to illustrate an example with modes that you're just saying right there is one of my favorite classes I've ever taken, period, was Counterpoint with Dr. Richards at University of Florida. I love taking modal counterpoint because it was not just learning about how to write counterpoint, but we got to the point where it was being creative, you know, writing the inventions and the fugues, but also looking at how those elements went into romantic counterpoint, post-tonal counterpoint, and even just the, you know, him wanting us to write a motet, you know, as a end of unit thing. That sort of stuff was very informative. And how I applied that to my own personal self was I did an undergraduate research with Dr. Richards as well, where I looked at modern popular music, pop music like on the radio, through the lens of modal counterpoint, and seeing how the voices interact. And I learned that very often the ranges of voices, like if the song was in D minor, or had a centricity around D, then the melody often would have a centricity around A, as if it was an authentic mode, and then a plagal mode, you know, like counteracting or counterpointing to the harmony. So there's an example of that. But, you know, I completely agree. And not to take my possible future job away or any of my cohorts, I think I had a great advantage having a bunch of theory classes taught by composers, because there was that creative element indeed. Again, I'm not saying it should all be that way, or I will not have a job eventually. But there's a lot to be said about having those creative, engaging things, because yes, theory is so much more fun than it's given credit for, even by the people who practice it, you know? So I totally understand that, and I appreciate that. Jane, I apologize for us going quite a bit over our time. But it's been a fun conversation. I did not want to cut it dry. But we're coming to the close. And so you're entering into your fourth year of PhD work at University of Florida, and you just did your tests, and now you're entering into the dissertation phase. So obviously, that's what's next for you in a broad sense. But what are some projects you have coming up, maybe aside from the dissertation? 

[Jane] Like I mentioned, there's going to be another collaboration with the Harn Museum, and dance department. So this time, we are going to pair, or we already paired composers with professors from the art department. So there will be more close collaboration with the artists. And again, there will be a dance department involved in that as well. So I'm writing that string quartet piece for them. Then there are several operas in progress. 

[Aaron] The operas? 

[Jane] Yeah. Several operas. Yeah. 

[Aaron] Why? 

[Jane] Well, okay, here's the thing. I think it was two years ago first, I did a workshop. I was a part of the workshop that is called Aria Institute. And basically, you're paired with a librettist, and each week you write an Aria with that librettist for your imaginary future opera. 

[Aaron] Each week? Each week? Oh, goodness. 

[Jane] So it's like super fast. Actually, I think they give us like two days to actually write the Aria, but then you have this like several rounds of revisions. So in total, it's the week between you are getting the prompt, like what you're writing, and then until the next week, you actually hear the reading of your work. So during those workshops, so I did it in 2022, 2023, and 2024, like this past June, I was also a part of that workshop. Because of that, I met a lot of librettists. And because of that, there were a lot of, you know, beginning of the operas, or like an Aria that could be developed generally. And so as a part of that, there are several projects that actually went beyond just one Aria. So I guess the largest one so far has seven Arias, and others are just like kind of in the planning stages. And there is that librettist I mentioned before, Germaine Shames. So I finished one opera, one chamber opera, and we workshopped that in March with the students at the University of Florida. That was kind of self-directed thing. So there wasn't like a director in the traditional sense. It was just me giving instructions of what to do. And it was practically like not staged. It just was kind of a concert premiere, if you wish. So with the same librettists, she already finished another text, another libretto. So I'm going to work on that one. I've written one Aria so far. And yeah, I'm looking forward to just dig more into that. I don't know when it is going to be finished, who is going to perform it, but you know, it will happen one way or another.

[Aaron] Yeah, so you got a dissertation and then several different operas to work on. Just some light Sunday afternoon work, I can tell. So yes, yes, yes. 

[Jane] Well, that's the work that I love doing. That's that's the fun part for me. 

[Aaron] Well, I say this admirably, but good for you. That's a lot. So Jane, what would be the best way for the audience to get into contact with you for any comments, questions, requests? 

[Jane] Okay, so if you go to my website, which is jankmusic.com, there is a contact button. So you can use that. I think that would be the best way. I don't know if you share the email that I've shared? 

[Aaron] I will. All of Jane's information will be in the description. 

[Jane] Yeah, so that's the best way. But yeah, I'm always looking to more collaborations and always happy to hear anything in regard to my music or if anyone has a specific project in mind, we can talk about that.

[Aaron] There you go. All right, Jane, we're at the end of this episode, but I'm going to give the last word to you. If you were to say anything to the audience about life, music, composition, anything that we've talked about today, what would that be? 

[Jane] Okay, I guess as you heard how many rejections I had and how many turns my path, like my musical path took, I'd say don't be afraid to be rejected. Rejections are just part of the game and it doesn't in any way reduce your value. And I'd say wherever you find one door closed, there's probably some other doors open. There are probably some other ways to go around, not through that door. And a lot of times those would be better for you. So yeah, and instead of waiting for opportunities, I hope that you can build opportunities and create those opportunities and lift up other people. 

[Aaron] Probably a message a lot of us, including myself sometimes, need to hear. All right, Jane, thank you very much for coming on to this episode of the Theorist Composer Collaboration podcast and sharing with us both your poem and the piece titled Remember Me Then. Thank you, Jane. 

[Jane] Thank you, Aaron. It was a pleasure.

[Aaron] This is Aaron again. I want to thank you for listening to this episode of the Theorist Composer Collaboration. I also want to give another big thank you to Jane Kozhevnikova for coming onto the podcast and for sharing her piece Remember Me Then. Jane's contact info is listed both in the description of this episode as well as on the corresponding contributor page on the TCC host website as well. And I would appreciate it if you could show her some support. In reflection of the interview and episode with Jane, I have to say one of the most compelling elements of her as a guest is her personal backstory and path into where she is now. One of the very last things that she said in the recording of the episode about the different trials and tribulations that she has had going on throughout the different spots and stops in her career with rejection and funding and so on and twists and turns that she didn't quite expect, I think is actually, you know, quite inspirational and comforting in a way. A lot of times in American culture, it feels like we are conditioned to feel like you have to go immediately up through the educational pipeline, first try, no skips or steps or anything, regardless of what happens, which of course, as many of us understand that, you know, that's not how life works. But it feels as though with the way that we're conditioned, maybe in high school or early undergrad, that one rejection or one twist or turn means you have to fundamentally change everything. And it's really encouraging and quite the privilege to see and speak to someone who has so much experience in dealing with the twist in terms of life and has been incredibly successful despite all of those different things and has made the absolute best of those opportunities. That is all to say that I want to again give a very special thank you to Jane Kozhevnikova for coming onto the podcast and for sharing her piece, Remember Me Then. For further updates and notifications on the Theorist Composer Collaboration, make sure to subscribe to our email listing on the homepage of our host website and follow our Instagram and Facebook pages. More relevant links in the description. You can listen to future episodes through our host website, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, iHeartRadio, and YouTube. So make sure you subscribe to the platform of your choosing. Again, all relevant links are in the description. TCC episodes are posted weekly on Mondays and don't miss our weekly blog posts, which go live a few days after a new episode is added. I'm also excited to tease or promote or preview that our next featured composer is Dr. Daniel Townsend and his piece, The Vibrations of Ancient Incarnations. There will be more information on this in the upcoming blog post and, of course, in the next full episode. Make sure to follow our social media accounts and relevant streaming platforms because you won't want to miss it. But, until then, this is Aaron, and thank you for joining the TCC.