18. The Vibration of Ancient Incarnations - Daniel Townsend, Ph.D.

[Aaron] Welcome to the Theorist Composer Collaboration, a podcast interview series highlighting modern composers and their compositions. My name is Aaron D’Zurilla and I'm the host of this podcast and also a graduate music theory student at Florida State University. Today I will be talking with the composer Dr. Daniel Townsend who, alongside his piece The Vibration of Ancient Incarnations, is the featured guest for this episode. We discuss his background, issues in and around academia, avant garde accessibility, graphic notation, the composition industry, and much more. So, without further ado, this is an excerpt from The Vibration of Ancient Incarnations by Dr. Daniel Townsend and welcome to the TCC. Again, the music that you were just listening to is an excerpt from the piece titled The Vibrations of Ancient Incarnations by the composer Dr. Daniel Townsend, who, alongside his music, is the featured guest for this episode. That leads me to welcome Dr. Townsend himself to the program. How are you?

[Daniel] Oh man, I do great. Well earned.

[Aaron] Awesome, awesome. And so, Dr. Townsend, how about you introduce yourself personally, professionally, academically, however you choose?

[Daniel] Sure, absolutely. So, yeah, I am, as we were just chatting about off the airwaves here, I am just freshly, like literally earlier today, completed the entirety of what I need to do in order to obtain a PhD, which...

[Aaron] The past couple hours, even.

[Daniel] Literally, quite literally, yeah. Like I submitted absolutely everything earlier today. So that feels really great because the tail end of that process is, there's a lot of legwork that goes into it that isn't necessarily even just the writing of your document, the research that you're putting into it. There's a lot of administrative stuff, a lot of like kind of, not politics, but just administrative stuff that you just kind of have to sort through. But it's good to be on the tail end of that and to be out on the other side. I am currently, also freshly, moved into West Harlem in New York City. I'm on 139th Street, so come meet up and let's grab a celebratory drink at some point soon, if you're hearing this soon after. I'm in the city. And I, over the course of the summer, have been kind of sustaining myself financially while I've been working on this document, of course, through dance accompaniment. And that has been an incredibly fulfilling journey. I started doing dance accompaniment when I was at University of Florida. And I've always been enthralled with the medium of dance. I absolutely love it. I took some dance classes myself when I was in my mid-20s. I'm now in my mid-30s. I will refrain from specifics. But I got really, really, really into the idea of interdisciplinary collaboration, especially through an improvisational means. So a lot of what I try to do as an artist now is to evoke the inner improviser in people and to really celebrate that, celebrate that individual expression. When I'm playing for modern dance or when I'm playing for ballet, I try, as much as I can, to actively improvise through it. If I'm familiar with, you know, what you need to do for a tendu or pas de cheval, pas de basque, or pirouette exercises, sometimes I have little structures that I just sort of expound upon in the classroom to suit the needs. But I like to be able to mimic what the teacher is giving. So that has been both artistically fulfilling as well as actually not a terrible lucrative financial opportunity for me here. I've been accompanying Gibney, Joffrey Ballet's Summer Intensive. I'm just finishing up Dance Leader Harlem's. I was accompanying Jose Limon's company and educational classes for a little bit. And that's a modern dance company or contemporary dance, I should say. And oh my gosh, like really, it's been really heart-happy stuff. So although I haven't actually like put pen to paper in written music in probably, geez, like I'd say, obviously seven months or so, because I've been trying to finish up the PhD. Being able to sit at the piano and play for dancers has just been so, a happy place, you know? 

[Aaron] Yes, yes, I'm sure. Definitely a break from what you normally do. And so you're getting your PhD in composition from University of Florida, as you said or alluded to. Are you, and you moved up to Harlem very recently. Are you originally from Florida or New York?

[Daniel] No, I grew up in a Philadelphia suburb. I'm from just outside Philadelphia. I grew up in the main line in a town called Villanova. And it was an affluent suburban upbringing. There's a lot of wealth around. And both my parents were doctors, but my parents were such that they had the foresight to not actively flaunt wealth, which, you know, maybe when I was younger, probably, like, irked me. But now I realized what a blessing and a beauty it was to, like, recognize that, like, frugality is a virtue. And, you know, not throwing money around in ways that are, let's say, just not unsavory, but like I learned how to be decent with money, even though historically I have not made that much as an artist. But that's never really bothered me. So yeah, that was, that was kind of the upbringing that I had.

[Aaron] Frugality is certainly a virtue, especially being a solo artist in urban New York, I'm sure. Anyways, here's a, here's a little bit of a sidetrack of a question on the PhD in composition. See, at Florida State, where I'm currently at, there is no PhD in composition. It's only the DMA. And I know recently at University of Florida, they had a change where they started offering a DMA. So I know a difference is a DMA is a performance degree primarily, and the performance in composition is writing a large piece or something of that sort. And PhD is research heavy. What what goes into the thinking when because there's a good deal of master students and up and coming composers who listen to this podcast, what goes into the decision making when you're an applicant choosing a PhD in composition program and a DMA in composition? I know money and opportunity of the school is a big one. But on paper, what goes into that decision making process?

[Daniel] We're going into it. Yeah, no, that's, that's such a valid good question. And it's something that I think I really did not have a handle on when I was applying for stuff that like the sheer difference. I was told by my professors at the time when I was going into the doctoral like, do I do the DMA? Do I do the PhD? I was I was told that after you're finished that a, and I'm putting this in air quotes because they're not my words, but that a PhD is quote unquote more desirable in some fashion. But I don't really buy that because…

[Aaron] Is it the appearance, the appearance of the letters PhD?

[Daniel] You know, I think there's I think there's probably some kind of I don't know if it's the right word, but that like snooty, like hegemonic, like, oh, the PhD, the the the pinnacle of the terminal degree, whereas the DMA is almost like viewed as it's, like, little brother in a way. But but like I said, I don't I, don't buy it because I, I feel as though getting a, getting a PhD or DMA is ultimately what you want to do with it. And it's interesting that now that I come out on the other side of getting this this PhD, you know, I'm realizing that like when I was doing the program, I was like, I want to teach at a university. I really want to be a composition professor. And now that I'm on the other side, I don't know, actually, like I would apply for those kinds of positions, but I would be happy doing a lot of different things. And ultimately, like the way that Florida was operating to this point, and this, you know, this is subject to change. And this is, of course, just my experience. But the DMA and the PhD, when you're going through the actual like classwork and the, you know, the way that the general day to day and year to year goes, they look exactly the same until you get to either you're going to put a ton of your effort into some big research project or you're going to put a ton of your effort into writing a gigantic composition. And and of course, you know, the PhD is the research, the DMA is the composition. And of course, with the PhD, there's also a composition aspect of it. But the emphasis is more on the research. So what I would say is that if you want to dig into some kind of research and if you already know what that is or have at least an inkling and an idea of what that is, I would 100 percent say go into a PhD because the resources it puts at your fingertips are immense. Like, I'm realizing right now, like literally it's hitting me right now, that as soon as I finish at University of Florida, I will not have such simple and easy access to the library resources and the wealth of online journals, articles, all these things. And it's literally dawning on me right now that that hurts. 

[Aaron] Yeah. So my next question was going to be, especially because you literally just submitted everything, what are some of your reflections on that? You just gave a little bit right there. But how do you feel?

[Daniel] Embrace the library. That is like step one. I, like, even going through undergrad, I took a bit of time between my undergrad and going back into graduate school, both the master's and PhD. I finished my undergrad in 2011 and then I went back for a master's in 2017. So I had a lot of chunk in there of like, just real life experience. I was living in Philadelphia for those years and I was playing in rock bands, wedding bands, jazz combos. I was teaching like, you know, I had a studio of like 30 students at one point. I did some commission work for composition. I just did the freelance music thing in Philly. I'm really glad I did that because it really taught me, not taught me, but it showed me what I wanted to do. And it made me appreciate the kinds of resources and the kinds of things that graduate school would be able to offer me. And I'm not saying, you know, oh, don't just race through and get the PhD straight from undergrad. No, there's plenty of people who do that who really appreciate it and they love it. But if I had done that, I would have burned out so hard before I got to the end. I just, I got to say it, you know, if you're planning on doing that, be certain that that, or not even certain. Have a high degree of certainty that that is what you want to do. And you're eager to do it because if you're like, I don't know what I'm going to do, I guess I'm just going to kind of stay in school and keep kicking the can down the road. I would almost, I'm not going to lie, I would almost suggest like take a pivot, live your life, even if it's just for a year. There's tons of like, in my understanding of it, and I could be wrong about this, but, like, the it's much more common in Europe and other, like, places in the world to take that gap year to, like, get that real life experience. And that's great. And I, actually I would suggest it more between the masters and like the terminal degree than the undergrad and masters just because the masters goes by so quick. Oh, my gosh. By the time you're finished your first year, you're halfway through. And then it's like, oh, guess I'm finishing up time to, you know, like wrap this up.

[Aaron] Well, now I can certainly attest to that because I just finished my first year in the masters and in a good, honestly, not that many more months I'll be applying to Ph.D. programs. It feels very premature. And it's interesting about all of that, because in more firmly academic fields such as my own with music theory, and I would probably assume musicology, there's less opportunity in, within those gaps. I feel like composition, the, there's so much not that not that I can't do a lot with my degree, but there's a lot more place and maybe even expectation for composers to branch out past the confines of the degree program.

[Daniel] Oh, interesting point. Yeah. And of course, my own, my own understanding of this is that of a, you know, historically someone who would label themselves as a composer, you know, as a composer, pianist, improviser, whatever. But, yeah, I feel as though like those other it's kind of like if you look at like an art history degree or, you know, ethnomusicology, musicology, things of that nature, those kind of smack of an academic environment, because what do we like, how do we how we apply those things outside of academia are much more constricted compared to something like, you know, I suppose writing new music, even though I never really thought of a composition degree as something that was like pushing open multiple different kinds of doors. It's, it's interesting to bring that up. And I think you really do have a point there that something like music theory is like, what do we do with music theory outside of not only the academic environment, but the educational environment? 

[Aaron] Probably not too much. And I think to a degree, that is okay. And I would say that not that necessarily a composition degree opens a ton of doors with the piece of paper, but it more equips you for skills that are more applicable outside of the academic system. And so a good tangents with all of that. And I appreciate your perspective, especially a, you know, I've had a couple of people in the program who at the time of the recording had just acquired their doctoral, you know, their ultimate degree, but never before someone who just a couple of hours ago sent in the paperwork. So that, that's pretty cool. But let's get into you as a composer, as you were talking about some, talking about improv. If you were to describe to someone, well, myself or the people listening, your music, whether you want to compare it to a style, time period or other composers.

[Daniel] All right. So part of what I really started digging into with my research was not necessarily the idea, you know, capital C composition, but the idea of capital I improvisation. A lot of what I do as a musician is to celebrate the individual human spirit and the individual expressivity, expressivity behind conscious improvisation. If I can draw active, like, putting yourself in a place of like, I can do this, then it's such a beautiful thing. And how I approach teaching music lessons, like teaching piano lessons or composition lessons, how I approach playing for a dance class, how I approach just music in general, it all comes from the same place. Like, there's no, there's no divide between me as a composer or me as an educator or me as an improviser or me as a theoretician, you know, theorist, whatever. It all comes from the place of I am celebrating myself. I don't even view it as like a selfish thing. Like, I'm celebrating myself and I'm actively inviting other people to celebrate themselves by giving them, you know, if I'm coming from a composer's perspective and I'm, say, handing someone a piece of paper that has some ink on it that I put there that invites them to do something musical, you know, that's like kind of my definition of composer, someone who puts the ink on the page, hands it to a musician and the musician interprets it. Often that ink that I put on that page will force the performer to insert themselves into the ink actively, that they will have to make choices based upon pitch, rhythm, some kind of boundary. Because I think of, if we think of the idea of improvisation as a field, right? Like, and I'm talking like pastors think like green grass, like a field. If I just say a field, think of it as you're just dropped in the middle of a field and you look around and there's just green grass everywhere. Composition is what kind of fence you put around that field and where. Like, if I was to create, like, say an orchestral score for so many different instruments and so many different timbres and whatnot, and I'm nitty gritty like saying, like, okay, you know, at this point, the flute is going to play a high D at mezzo forte, that is going to be a half note that is going to, you know, that's I'm I am putting a very clearly defined tall fence with certain ornate gestures and certain like hemmings in this field. But if I start with, you know, a five line staff and then throughout the course of the piece, I take that staff away. But I still keep things that look like Western notation, musical gestures. Then your field kind of starts to you have to, you have to explore it more yourself. You're not as hemmed in to these like specific ideas that composers are stipulating. So that's just one kind of weird, I guess, imagery behind what I try to do as a, as a creator, as an artist.

[Aaron] Fair enough. Now, so it's not, you know, when I say part of the problem with that, it's not I'm not disagreeing or pushing back because I think we discussed during our preliminary talk that was not recorded. Sorry everybody, is the difficulty of improvisation in pedagogy or the resistance to it. And you talked about that a little bit right there. And so, you know, as you were illustrating right there, part of the problem or difficulty with pedagogy in general is where you put those fence posts. That's the same in music theory. It's even more of a problem in composition, I would almost say, because, you know, like if you give someone Sibelius and don't tell them anything, they might just go haywire. And that's even just on the fact that it's Sibelius. Sorry, not sorry, Avid. But my point is, is, you know, with teaching or introducing the concepts of improvisation, something I'm not very familiar with myself in my own studies and performance, that's an even more open field, as you were just putting with that. And so when I ask you what difficulties have you run into, I'm not critiquing your method or, I think it sounds great, but what are some of the things that you've had to tackle and work around with helping students explore their own expression in improvisation? 

[Daniel] That's a great question. The biggest thing that I try to do, and let me preface this by saying one of my biggest composer inspirations is Pauline Oliveros.  And specifically her thoughts and ideologies about this concept of deep listening, actively merging your attention on a single focal point and your awareness of the broader aural spectrum around you is really very eye opening stuff for me. So I would 100% tell you, check out her piece, Sonic Meditations, or her writings called Software for People. And a lot of my improvisation imitations are based upon some of those same concepts. And so part of the difficulties I've ran into with either putting a highly improvisatory thing in front of an ensemble or inviting students to come to a place of improvisation is, first, is just raw anxiety. I think a lot of educational environments set up a dichotomy of you're either doing it right or wrong and you either got the answer or you didn't get the answer, especially the way standardized tests work, especially the way that a lot of like… And with so many different fields, even mathematics, things that we look at as like, oh, this is objective, you either got the answer or not, you show your work to get there. There are multiple different avenues that you can go down. It's not so cut and dry based upon the medium that you're working within. So to go back, when I'm teaching or when I'm giving this ensemble this thing, I try to work through their anxiety by actively inviting them into a place of there is no right or wrong here. I'm giving you a set of guidelines. These aren't rules. These are things that I'm inviting you to just make sound. Make the sound, interpret the page as you see fit to the best of the fence posts that I put around this field. And I invite them into that space. And the less that I have to, quote unquote, explain, kind of the better. Because, and I've done this with multiple different ensembles that I've handed pieces off to, is that I tell them, if you can answer any questions that you have around the score between each other, like say I hand it to a quartet or something, right? If someone has a question about like, oh, how are we supposed to interpret blank? And someone else in that ensemble says, oh, I'm interpreting it as blank. Go with that because that's your ensemble. Those are the people you're making the sound with. That almost, like I said, my gestures that I put on a page and give to you are invitations. I'm not stipulating like you must bring out the beautiful thing that's in my mind. No, I invite you to create the beautiful things in your minds and to celebrate that and to put you on that pedestal to invite you to be both the improviser and into the compositional process all at the same time. And when I do that with young kids, if I have a student who is like, oh, I don't know how to improvise. I don't know what to do. I'm like, hey, check it out. It can be as simple or as complex as we want it to be. And sometimes I'll just say, follow me for a moment and I'll play them at C and I'll say, just play what I play. I'll play that C and then I'll invite them to play that C. Then I'll play C and D and then they play C and D. And then I'll play C, D and then I'll be like, hey, what's another note we could put on here? And if they're still feeling, like, kind of boxed in, then I try to find stimulus variations and ways to get them to explore and ways to make it into almost a game. And I can do the same thing with ensembles, but typically when people are a little bit older, once they get the gist of what I'm going for, they're either on board with it or they're not. 

[Aaron] That's a good way to put that. But yes, thank you for that. I always enjoy pedagogical angles on… I feel as though I might be wrong, but at least someone who's outside of the ideas of improvisation, pedagogical angles of those sort of things are not always discussed as much, at least outside of jazz, where it's more stereotypically talked about. But that's a, that's a whole other hour conversation to fully explore that. But let's turn our attention to the focus of today's episode, other than yourself, of course, is your piece, The Vibration of Ancient Incarnations. And so it's probably one of the most unique and distinct pieces that I've had onto this podcast so far. And there's quite a bit to talk about with it. Listeners have already heard some of it at the very beginning, and they could probably already tell why it's a bit different. So let's talk about it on a logistical level. So it is for 4 to 24 voices, conductor, and narrator, and the spoken text from the narrator is from a poet named Mike Mahoney. And so let's first start with the title of the piece, The Vibration of Ancient Incarnations. Can you talk about what that means and just overall introduce us to this piece?

[Daniel] So Mike and I are good friends. He lives in Philadelphia. He is just such a phenomenal artist in the sense, in every sense of the word. He's a fantastic percussionist, a beautiful poet and just overall a deep thinker and a feeler in a lot of different ways. And I love to pay homage to him as an artist. He and I kind of have this like not unspoken because I've chatted with him about this. But whenever I'm studying text, he has, he has a whole string of poetry books that he's written. And I just, I love his poetic style. It's very ebullient. It's very, it kind of smacks of this like cosmic joy in a way. And this like very in this very in your face and present way that it's easy to let the information kind of just fly by you almost. And you just you're like, you realize like, oh, my gosh, I've been tuning out for a little bit. What's going on with the text? What's going on with the words? What's happening? Where are we in this poetry? So the title of this is, is literally just the title of his poem, The Vibration of Ancient Incarnations. And what the title refers to is just this concept of words, because words are just vibrations. It's just wiggly air, as Brendan Sweeney, good friend Brendan Sweeney likes to say.

[Aaron] I forgot about that. I remember him saying that.

[Daniel] It's just, it's just wiggly air. And so and the shape of those vibrations creates these ancient incarnations, these like, this, this proto language, you know, becoming this communicative medium. And so that's why the very beginning of this poem starts out with much as I like, I cannot seem to wear out these words. And then it's just a list of words that never get worn out because we always find these new ways of using these vibrations to communicate new concepts and new ideas. 

[Aaron] Interesting. And you get like a call and response sort of effect with the accompanying voices in the narrator, people reacting to those words. That's very cool. So, so you're you have a friendship or professional friendship with the poet. How did this collaboration come about?

[Daniel] So often when it, when it comes down to it, if I know I want to use a text, I'll just reach out to Mike. And I have like a bunch of his, his poetry pinned. Like, I've read all of his books. I have a lot of his, I have a lot of like, you know, kind of I put little post-it notes in it. And because some of his poetry is very long and it's very like it's just pages and pages of this, like, kind of beautiful, like pouring forth, so to speak. And sometimes it's incredibly short and it's just like a stanza. And it's so I will I'll basically, like, kind of assess my own life, like what's going on at that moment. And how do I how, do I feel as though I want to express through whatever like, you know, textual vocalized medium? And often there's a poem for that. There's something that is capturing what it is that I'm feeling at that time. And when I was putting this piece together, I actually put this piece together for Jane K's, Jane Kozhevnikova's ensemble, the new music ensemble at UF's campus. And I put this piece together and I wanted to make it a highly improvisational invitation to the people that were in that ensemble. At that, at the point that I was writing it, we kind of had, like, a little bit of flexibility with numbers. Sometimes people showed up. Sometimes other people showed up. There was, it wasn't like a revolving door. But that's why I made it between 4 and 24 voices, because, you know, if we have 8 people, we can do it. If we have 18 people, we can still do it. If we have, you know, 5 people, which is the conductor slash narrator and four people, we can do it. You know. 

[Aaron] I would assume that, well, tell me if I'm wrong, 24 might be the preference.

[Daniel] So, yes, I mean, it would be great. And also, I mean, realistically, if the narrator is amplified, you could do this for a full choir. And that would be its own. That would be a very different piece. The difference between performing this with, like, an 80 person choir and an amplified narrator compared to a 4 person S.A.T.B. or, you know, 4 part split and a narrator would be due to wildly different interpretations of this piece, which I actually really appreciate. I love the flexibility of this piece and some of my other works can undergo based upon the performance, what the performance needs and what the ensemble can offer it.

[Aaron] And the composer that Dr. Townsend was referencing, Jane Kozhevnikova, was the guest on last week's episode at the time of this release. I encourage you to go listen to that one after you're done with this one. Don't leave. Don't leave. We're not done with you. But yes, yes. So this piece was already performed or clearly recorded. There's no MIDI out there that can replicate voice that well. But MuseScore quite hasn't gotten there yet. What was the, the name of the ensemble that performed it?

[Daniel] Oh, the New Music Vocal Ensemble. Yeah, Jane started that on UF's campus. And I was involved with it for the time that I was still on campus back at UF. And yes, we did culminate in a performance with this work that I narrated and the rest of the ensemble interpreted the 4, the 4 different parts over top of the narration. So, and actually the funny thing, that was my first like really formal performance that I did. Oh, my gosh, I'm bringing this up. I did it barefoot, actually. Well, I had socks on and I, that's there's a reason for that is that I, I lost my black shoes. I didn't, I, literally, the day of the performance, I'm like I'm slammed. I'm like racing around and I cannot find my black shoes for the life of me. And I'm realizing, you know what, like I would rather do this just with black socks on and feel my feet against the ground for this performance than to wear, like, brown shoes with an all black suit and call that kind of attention to myself on stage. You know what I mean? So it was interesting because I was like both, both like reveling in the fact that because I love to be barefoot. I absolutely love to be barefoot, like I'm barefoot right now. So, so I was reveling, I was like, you know what, I'm going to be comfortable while I perform this, as well as, you know, wrestling with the anxiety and the formality of like, I am not wearing shoes during a, like, school sanctioned performance in the music building school, room 101. This is interesting.

[Aaron] Certainly interesting. So there's some of the essential background with the piece. Let's get into, I want to say that I cleared this with Dr. Townsend. Obviously, all guests get what questions I'm going to ask beforehand, but he's comfortable with this line of questioning, so it's no sort of confrontation. But one thing that I thought was interesting about this piece earlier, I said that this is the most unique piece, probably, that has been on the program, is that it is the closest to what most people and I still would say this would identify as avant-garde music. Now, avant garde music has a long and storied history, and what is considered avant-garde or not avant garde is really relative on the time period that you're talking about. So, I mean, in a relative sense, right now, this composition maybe isn't avant garde, because avant garde very literally means like the most extreme pushes of boundaries. And, you know, anyone who's spent time in the modern composition field can say this is maybe not that. And no offense to you not saying that it's basic or anything, but some people have done some wild things out there. So, but this gets into what can be a controversial, and sometimes, in the worst cases when it's not treated properly, it can be insulting to artists, which is the discussion of accessibility of art. And so, well, I just introduced the accessibility of art, but I want to hear before we get into that specifically, what is your thought about how I'm talking about your piece in relevance to the avant garde?

[Daniel] That, yeah, I mean, and like you said, you know, it's interesting to say that word. I think that word has just undergone its own, like, historical, like positive and negative valence, if you know what I mean. Like saying the words avant garde brings to mind exactly what you described in my mind, at least I can only speak to myself, but it brings to mind the extremity. It brings to mind this idea of like, what's the furthest off the beaten path, you know? Can I like, you know, throw a pot and pan in some soil and bang it and call it a piece? 

[Aaron] Yes, the answer is yes, apparently.

[Daniel] So, and that's the thing, because you're actively creating sound and you're celebrating the individual spirit by doing so great, you know? I think while those kinds of labels are really, really essential for us to be able to categorize and put things in different, like, I think of it like tabs in my head, like, you know, internet browser tabs, like to slot things into different folders to get an understanding of something based upon something else, you know, to give it some perspective. But it's interesting because there's a lot of, let me say this, there's a lot of avant garde music that I hold very, in my opinion of the word and my understanding of it, that I hold to a high degree as something that is very useful for study, something that is very useful for me to know about and to employ those practices into my own compositional or improvisational process. But I don't like it. An artistic, like, expression, I'm not going to sit there and put it on, you know? I, like, there are plenty of times that I've, like, started listening to something and I might be, I might be putting myself on blast with this, but the fact is it's true. There have been times that I put on a certain composer's piece that is highly avant garde. I have the score in front of me. I listen to it for 20 seconds and I'm like, all right, I get it. And I turn it off. And that is okay with me, you know? If I really, if I wanted to dive in and have, and there are other times that I put on some avant garde, highly experimental, you know, pushing the boundaries piece and I get wrapped into it. And I'm in it for like 20 minutes and I'm like, this is, this is amazing because I'm listening deeply. I'm opening my ears up as big as they can. And I, it, it, it touches something in my soul that is very relevant, even if it's not, you know, four chord pop tune stuff. And it's like, oh my gosh, like halfway through this piece, the entire choir is just screaming fire. And it's like, you know, it's enlisting this anxiety in me, but then they're, you know, like just saying water gently afterwards and it cools off my heightened emotional state. So, and I'm not saying that's just an example. I'm not saying that actually… I think that it's okay to use these labels, especially in a non-pejorative sense, because it can give us an understanding of how that piece pairs with, you know, pop music, jazz. It gives us a sense of categorization on top of it. And I think that it's not an ill categorization of this work. 

[Aaron] Yeah. And so I think what, you know, what you're describing about how some things within this avant garde label, which we're just going to stick with that for the purpose that, you know, you, we both outlined why that maybe isn't always the most accurate, but we'll stick with avant-garde to label this piece and things similar, is that music such as at least this piece of yours and others that push boundaries of, let's say, tonal, orchestrational, structural, elements of music, requires some kind of buy-in by the audience to sit there and say, okay, this is something different and I'm going to accept it, decline it, or invite it. You know, I'm going to take a little bit of, give a bit of the benefit of the doubt to the composer, to the arranger, the producer, and say, I trust this person to go, or I trust this performance to take me on a journey that is outside of my perception. So part of it, a little bit of it is on the audience, is to say, okay, I'm going to surrender my expectations to whatever's about to happen. But this is the controversial part, and this is why I was so careful in how I introduced this and why I made sure it was okay with you, is in my limited life experience, and you could probably speak to that, you can speak to this a lot better than I can, artists who go into the avant garde space sometimes are not okay entertaining the idea that it is in any way their responsibility to hook in the audience, other than it just being a novel concept. And if that responsibility of bringing the audience along is brought up in any way in that sphere, it's seen as not legitimate to question that. For myself, I also, I, maybe even more than you're saying, I have always had a hard buy-in when it comes to more avant garde music, in terms of just not as an academic and not as a music theorist, but just as a music consumer, as a person, I have a hard time with that. I will say, University of Florida broke me of that a little bit, the Comp Skills classes introduced, especially Dr. James Paul Sain's class, introduced some wild stuff that I've never heard of since and before then, and I still have a hard buy-in sometimes, but I would say I'm generally pretty open. There's this push and pull of phenomenon, and I'm not trying to insult artists and composers. As someone who's not a composer and doesn't generate art in that way, I personally buy into the idea that there should be some consideration of the audience when creating that art, if you're going to have such a novel aspect. If part of the purpose of the art is to ignore the audience, then I guess that's a bit different. You know, creating this buy-in is sometimes incredibly difficult. So there's all this context. My actual question with this, you know, we want this art to continue, even if it's music and art that has such a hard buy-in that hardly many people are going to consider it past those 20 seconds or whatever, you still want people to explore and create new things because you never know when that next hook is going to be, right? I would say, I hope most people think that even if you don't personally enjoy all of it. How would you, as someone who has created, I would say very successfully, art that does push past the boundaries is in the avant garde, and maybe music to me, that might be kind of a hard buy-in, but I can appreciate it. What would you say to someone who's, let's say, at a pre-concert lecture, someone who is in a intro music history class, an introductory composition class, because it requires some priming to open your ears and open your heart to whatever you're about to experience. How would you talk to someone who might not be so experienced with things that are more experimental?

[Daniel] So, yeah, wow. That's a great way of-

[Aaron] That was a lot. I'm sorry, I went on quite a lot, but, yeah.

[Daniel] No, no, no, no, no, no, no, there's so- oh my gosh, we could unpack the rest of that for 5 hours here. Like, if I was to prime somebody of what's about to happen here, let me start with a tiny tangent, then I'll come back, so I'll go on my own little- There was a similar piece that I wrote for a trio called Sputter Box that also had highly improvisatory, like, you know, really inviting the performers to insert themselves into it in terms of like notes, pitch, rhythm, dynamics, all this kind of stuff. And I gave a master class on this work to a bunch of very, like, academic, collegiate, like, master students, composers from, like, a lot of different universities. And I told them, I'm going to purposefully not show you the score. And I'm just going to have you listen to a minute of this. And I showed- so, so I turned it on, and I instantly see all of them, and these are, these are people who are hungry for that avant garde. They really love this, like, new musical expression. They want to learn from it. They want to, you know, absorb different compositional practices. And it's a great thing to do, to have that educational spirit behind what you're, what you're doing. But I show them, like, a minute of this work, and I see everyone kind of light up a little bit. And they're like, oh my gosh, listen to these, like, clarinet overtones that are going on, and listen to that vocal trill. How did you- And they're instantly in their mind thinking, how did he notate that? How did he, how did he put that on page? Oh my gosh, what are the rhythms going on here? This is ridiculous. This is wild. This is nuts. And then when I showed them the score, and it was largely graphic notation, I watched the room deflate. And I loved it. I absolutely loved it.

[Aaron] As a little caveat, I just want to say, I do the exact same thing with all compositions for this program. I purposely don't even open the PDF of the score. I immediately go for the audio file. And so I was doing some dishes, I was listening to it, and I was like, what the hell is going on? Then, we're going to talk about it in a minute. I looked at your score, I was like, what the f***?  So anyways, continue. 

[Daniel] No, but that's just it. There's a different listening experience that happens when you're just listening compared to when, like, you know, there's that old, like, caveat of like, oh, you listen as much with your eyes as you do with your ears. I want people, I want to invite people into a space of just listening with their ears. If you're going to listen, use your ears. Like, when I'm watching an orchestra or I'm at, like, some kind of performance, probably more than half the time, my eyes are closed. Because if you see the conductor make some sharp gesture, your body is expecting some kind of sharp sound to happen afterwards. Whereas if my eyes are closed, and all of a sudden I get walloped by some kind of like, you know, like Firebird Suite orchestral hit, like, I get chills. But if I see the conductor prime that, I'm almost like, I feel like I'm almost like giving away a surprise, you know? So, and I'm not saying, like, everyone should listen to music with eyes closed all the time. But I'm saying that it's an interesting stimulus variation.

[Aaron] I've never thought of it that way, especially with an orchestral conductor. That's really interesting.

[Daniel] So by showing this piece that I wrote to this like, you know, room of avant garde, effectively, composers, but not showing them the score, they're all thinking, what's the notation? But it's just basically squiggles. The notation is meant to draw out some kind of improvisational sound from the ensemble. And then the question doesn't become like, oh man, how does that like 15 over 8 like nested tuplet, like, you know, how does that? The question becomes like, wow, these performers are really convincing. This is a really captivating… So it shifts, it shifts the focus away from me. And I kind of, I kind of want that in a way. I don't like people, I don't like it when it's, when it's like, oh, wow, you know, what a fantastic performance. Oh, bravo to the composer. No, bravo to the players. They're the one making the sound. My God. The other one's doing it. Like that's like, that's way more impressive than me putting some like squiggles on a page and then, you know, calling it art, capital A. So to kind of redouble back around, if I was to actively prime a listening experience of this work, I would tell people to drop your concept of what you think a quote unquote song is, because this is words that are carried through the sonic medium that is meant to convey more than just a series of like messages. It's meant to do it in a sonorous fashion. Meanwhile, it's meant to highlight the individual expression of each of the people that are doing this performance. So as you're as you're listening, I would invite them to just close their eyes and to just focus on the narrator, focus on the words that are going on. See if you can pull out one timbre of one person. Can you get like when I listen to that, like, you know, of course, I very rarely actually listen to my own pieces like after they're performed. Like once the performance is done, the piece is, like, effectively archived in my mind, if you know what I mean. I'm like on to the next. But when I when I was sending the MIDI or not the MIDI, the recording into you, I was like, you know, I'm going to listen to this a little bit more just to make sure it doesn't have like some horrible crackle in it. You know, and it's funny, I was listening to it and I could pick out individual voices of friends of mine in the general, like, choir, you know, that I think we had like seven or eight people in the choir. And then I was narrating and I was like, oh, wow. Yeah, that's Huang. I can hear Huang saying the word stars. I let my ear get drawn to that. And then I let my ear get just like taken on this journey that isn't necessarily like, oh, listen to this beautiful, imperfect authentic cadence. Oh, it's deceptive. Oh, and again, I don't mean to be pejorative with that. I just mean it's a different frame of listening. It's a different musical satisfaction that you get when you realize that everyone's just making sound together. And that's all that this is meant to do. 

[Aaron] I really, thank you very much for all that. The listening to your friends specific voices, I'm sure, is a very special feeling. But thank you very much for that. And I want to thank you for entertaining this topic even because it the framing of it even puts like the almost the validity of the music in question, which is not what I'm trying to do, but often avant garde or explorative music outside of academic or artistic settings typically is called into question of the validity of such. And if we want this art and music to continue and need to have conversations of how to set the musical expectations as you were just doing to people who might really find a lot from it, but have a hard buy-in from the get go. So I think that was a very good way to put that. And I agree. Opening your mind. And I also enjoy, especially at new music concerts, closing my eyes as well, because you never, you know, I always tell people. See, I'm I have no interest in being a composer and I'm not one, but the most fun event, no offense to any orchestra or band concerts, but the most fun you will ever have in undergrad, graduate, whatever, as a student at a music school is going to composition concerts because you never know what the hell is going to happen. 

[Daniel] That's that's the beauty of it. Oh, my gosh. Like, I find it, I find it interesting that you say that. But but also, if I can redouble back to your, your comment that you made before about like, you know, writing for the audience, I never write for the audience anymore. And the reason for that is that I don't believe that, like, the less that I can differentiate between the audience member and the performer, the better. Like, I think that it would be a completely different thing to have 40 people in an audience and to have 10 people on stage performing a work like this. Then it would to be having 50 people perform the work like this. When I first put a piece like this in front of the New Music Vocal Ensemble, like, you don't you don't have to be able to read music to, to execute this work. You could put this in front of someone who has absolutely zero musical background and you could perform this piece. There's a communal intent behind it. And the thing is, just by the very act of going through it and doing it together, you're creating community. You're, and you're, you're, you're forming a different kind of bond and friendship and understanding of these people than you had before. When I write now, I write for the quote unquote player. But that's also because, and actually this is, I'm taking this from, this wasn't even my composition lesson. This is a lesson with a friend and colleague of mine, Gabe. He was having a lesson. 

[Aaron] Gabe Gekoskie? 

[Daniel] Yeah. Yeah. 

[Aaron] Yeah. Another alumni of the TCC. Anyways, go on.

[Daniel] He's having a lesson with a fantastic composer named Martin Eden. He's, I think he's, he's based somewhere in the UK teaching maybe rural conservatory. I'm not sure. But he said that whenever you're writing music, if you're writing for the audience, really what you're writing for is what you think the audience wants. And why would I, why would I stuff my own thought of what the audience wants when I should just be doing what I want? I thought it was so beautifully put. And I was, I was like, you know, this was like a year or two ago. I had never thought about it in such incredibly simple terms. Like, I don't know what the audience wants. I don’t care what the audience wants. I know what I want to do and I'll do that. 

[Aaron] I, I don't know if I agree with it. But I also, I'm going to meditate on that because I thought that, that, that is a good way to put that viewpoint. And that's not necessarily a frame I've thought about. before. So…

[Daniel] Yeah. Right. And that's, that, that's the beauty of education. We can, we can meditate on things.

[Aaron] So I think I'm going to have to keep whatever thoughts I'm thinking of myself because that's just a new way to think about it for myself. So we're going to, we're going to, talking about notation and the accessibility or the style of that. We're going to get onto that right now. But I want to thank you again for entertaining what can sometimes be an uncomfortable and certainly controversial topic with composition.

[Daniel] I'm an open book. Let's go.

[Aaron] Let's go indeed. I appreciate that. So let's talk about one of the most unique thing. And the reason why I said, oh, my gosh, what's happening when I looked at the score is I was not expecting just as that room full of people you were detailing almost entirely graphic notation score. Now, this is a podcast and there's no visuals. I wish I could share it because you created almost in what at least, I don't know any of your other works, almost a completely unique graphic notation system to represent the vocal tricks, styles, and quirks that you wanted the ensemble to have all for this piece. And, you know, there are staves, there is traditional musical organization in some way, there's fermatas and so on. But there's tons of different shapes and shadings and squiggles and boxes, and it's all detailed in the program notes. So I have never been brave enough or comfortable enough to go into graphic notation of some kind like that. I love my, I love my standard notation if I am ever to write music. So what is that process like putting together a graphic score like that? You know, maybe even literally, because I don't know what the settings are on Finale or Sibelius or whatever you use. Just what is the compositional process like for a graphic score?

[Daniel] No, that's step one is that I switched over from Finale into Dorico, as it seems like many composers are doing in droves. 

[Aaron] And I can't wait. I can't wait to once my Sibelius contract is up.

[Daniel] Yeah, not to not to poo poo Finale or Sibelius, but I absolutely love Dorico if I'm using it for certain musical gestures that fit within a Western notational system. The creation of the score was done entirely in Illustrator, in Adobe Illustrator. I don't, like, it's more, it's more common nowadays in my writing process for me to use Dorico as just a way of getting some little, like, fragments to put into Illustrator for some, like, musical purpose. It's less common for me to go into Illustrator and put something on a hypernotated Dorico score at this point. And I realized in my writing process at a certain point that using Dorico or Finale or some notation system software like that actually limited what it was that I wanted to bring out musically. I mean, I can't do the things that I want to do on those programs. So quite frankly, I use them as tools, but I don't use them as the end all be all of this is how you make music. And I think it's easy for people to get stuck in that frame of mind. I also actually it's more common probably for me to open up a Logic session, like I have Logic Pro X. It's much more common for me to open up Logic with a microphone and just start recording stuff and just you know, and I even, I have, I have hundreds of voice memos on my phone and I have a zoom H4n that I just take either field recordings or if I get an idea either like, you know, gestural, timbral, musical, whatever, I'll just like open a quick recording, give it a timestamp and just put something in there. But yeah, I, I really appreciate being able to use, like, Illustrator and Photoshop and things of that nature because it allows me to approach musical notation from a freer sense. And it gives me more ability to impart, to invite into individual expression from people that doesn't stipulate D4 for a quarter note at mezzo forte in your voice, you know, during this phrase, like it's I'm less interested in that. 

[Aaron] Now on a practical level, this is probably out of my own compositional naivete. And this is probably just what a lot of composers I would imagine have early in their career. But, you know, an awesome crutch is being able to hear the MIDI realization of what you're writing. So I know that's something that tries to get beaten out of composers as they go along in their academic and professional training.But what is it like when you're in the editing engraving stage and the finalization of your score before you're going into a rehearsal and making sure it's representing, what I’m assume… well, okay, let's talk about the rehearsal process. Just what is the, when you have a graphic notation score where you can't rely on a MIDI realization, it's almost taking it back to an older school style of rehearsal and editing of composition. So can you talk about what that's like?

[Daniel] It is, it's active risk taking and vulnerability. There have been times that I've put graphic things in front of, I'll just say I won't call anyone out, but I've put graphic things in front of incredibly prestigious ensembles. I've had times that the ensemble has looked at me and been like, what the hell is this sh** that you do? And I've had times that they looked at it and they thought, and they and they even said out loud like, wow, this is really great. But your, your fence boundary is unclear here. What is it that you're really going for? And I realize that it's an incredibly valid question. And I am incredibly humbled by that question because it was something that I did not foresee as a potential issue. So the fact is, you have to be willing to fall directly onto your face with this. And that is a really, really, really vulnerable aspect of emancipating yourself from not only the MIDI play button, but from Western musical notation in general, is that you have to be able to laugh at yourself and to laugh with yourself at the certain kinds of questions that come up. Like I had even with this score, actually, I will say that this I gave to the New Music Vocal Ensemble. And recently and again, I won't call it the ensemble, especially because we haven't actually brought this project to fruition yet. I actually gave this piece to a, a very, very good, I'll say, vocal ensemble. And there were some things that they looked at it and they were like, so based upon your instructions and based upon the way this graphic looks, why are you doing blank? And I realized that in that moment, I was like, that was such a hyper specific, super narrow focused question that I realized in that moment. I got really caught off guard by it and I didn't have a terrific answer for it. And in the back of my mind, I went, well, I learned something today. And it's, but for me, I'm a constant learner and I've gotten, oh, my God, the difference between the way that the score looks and the way that my first completely graphic thing looked is like a world, it's a world of difference. 

[Aaron] I'm sure.

[Daniel] And it's really, like, it's been this stepwise path of just getting more and more familiar with, man, if I just, like, draw a pretty picture and give it to the performer, what are they going to do with it? I have a better idea now because I'm able, it's, it's like, it's like teaching yourself how to get out of your own way and teaching yourself how to whenever you sit down with a work like this and you're working on it, how to get out of your own mind and think, what would this look like if I had never seen it before? That's the, that's like the, I try to put new glasses on every single time I sit down and approach this kind of writing. So in a way, it's reinventing the wheel over and over again. But, I mean, who knows? Maybe we could make it better.

[Aaron] Oh, that's, that's, well, that sounds so stressful. Taking yourself, taking yourself out of the bounds of standardization is always a big risk, especially, you know, one of the fears of any composer or collaborator is getting to the hot seat moment. And then like, like you're just describing right there, certainly a big risk taking moment. What do you do in those moments, by the way, when someone's like, what, what the hell is this sh**? Like, what, what, what do you say? What do you do?

[Daniel] So before we sit down into that first rehearsal, the ideal is if I'm able to kind of prime them a little bit. I don't ask for permission to write them something that's more improvisatory, but sometimes I try to push back. Like, I try to see where they're at. Like, if they're the kinds of performers that I get the sense that they have not, like, ever played a note on their instrument that wasn't explicitly written down for them in, like, in their path.

[Aaron] That's a lot. 

[Daniel] That's a lot of players. Sure. That's a lot of people. And that's, that I think is a, saying something about the way that we undergo musical education in general. But that's again, that's a different topic. But I try to make them aware of what it is that I'm going to be inviting them into to some degree. I check where their, kind of, current boundaries are. And I see if I can just, even just like tap on the glass a little bit. I know it's like fish.

[Aaron] Like some fish. Yeah.

[Daniel] I kind of can't help but, like, pry into like, let's see if I can make you just the slightest little bit uncomfy and see what you do with that in a performance setting. For example, there are plenty of pieces that I've done with this, like, kind of graphic mindset that I actually tell the ensemble, do not rehearse this extensively. Like the whole point of it is to create something in that moment, because if you're, if you're familiar with someone with someone's playing, you get comfortable with, like, how they sound, how to blend with them, what they generally like tend to do. Do they push? Do they pull? Do they lead? Do they, you know, like you get comfortable with someone from an ensemble sense. So when it comes to using that with, like, much freer boundaries, I'm afraid in some regards that if you rehearse something too much, you're going to get too comfortable with like, oh, at that gesture, that person always does blank. And I can expect that now. And I can anticipate that. And then I can play off that. And in some ways, in some compositional senses, that's good. But that's not what I'm going for. Like, I would rather you're like, I would rather keep people on their toes while they're playing than have people settle back into their heels, you know?

[Aaron] I'm sure, I'm sure. So before, before we move on, there's one, there's probably my favorite moment or the moment that was other than the whole concept of the piece, one of the most ear catching times of the piece was near the end. I don't remember the exact text that was along with it, but it was probably, I would say the first time in the piece where you had sustained almost normal coral texture in the voices. And what was so haunting about it was not just the timbre, but the flip flopping between what sounded like perfect consonants and the like harsh minor second major second dissonance, to put it in a traditional light. But can you talk about why you left that kind of texture for the end? It's like leaving a climactic moment near the end. I get that in storytelling almost, but can you just talk about that time and moment in the piece?

[Daniel] Sure. So the words that are coming at that moment, I've pulled up the score here, is that specific stage of growth and development. And directly after that, what I do, like the style of notation that I've set up is yes, the higher that the gesture is on this quote unquote staff, the higher the pitch is in your voice. And the instruction is, you know, the very top of this line is the highest that your voice can go without causing damage to it. Without, like, having to strain it in order to reach that top. And then the lowest on the staff is the lowest note that you can hit without hurting your voice. You know, I don't want anyone to experience pain. But what I do is I make a gesture, I make a box that spans the entirety of it for all the voices to interpret. So if you're the lowest voice part, you could sing at the top of your range and you would be interpreting this correctly. Or if you're the highest voice part, you could sing at the lowest part of your range and you could be interpreting this correctly. So there's no incorrect note to sing. But the idea is that everyone just hits a note and just holds it, whether it's incredibly discordant with the rest around you or consonant. And then the invitation is as I, the, well, as we did it, I was the conductor at the time as well, that I actually held my hands in like this kind of as though you're, like, holding a ball with like one hand on top and one hand on bottom. And then what I did as I continued through by saying of self-reflection of cresting, crashing, ebbing and flowing, is that I twisted my hands and just clasped them together. And the ideal here is that for everyone, they just they're listening out and they try to find one single collective pitch. If you don't find it, it's fine. It's okay. It's not this isn't a like, like, oh, we either did it or not. But the intent is to try and find one collective pitch. And in the performance, we, it was beautiful. It was this gorgeous like, you know, you hear this kind of, like, ethereal static like, like I can't I literally can't sing like eight voice parts at once. Sorry. 

[Aaron] Yeah. 

[Daniel] But then we, and we all just, like, settle into this one spot. And then the thing is, the text goes on by saying of ebbing, flowing and reforming back in wave. And we just start creating these waves of, like, coalescing onto a single pitch and coming back. But we're saying the word heart. That is what the choir gesture is going for. And the thing is, one of the, you were talking about the different, the difficulty of, like, theorizing this work and this kind of, to give you a tiny peek at the inside of my brain here when I was creating it. The very first gestures that appear on the first page or two is 90 percent of the material that appears throughout the rest of the work. We say these individual words, stars, dreams, power, soil, water. And the gestures that come from the chorus after I say those words are the things that just get peppered in later throughout the work. There's a couple other things that get peppered that get sprinkled in. But I'd say probably 90 percent of the piece happens in the first 30 seconds of the music. And then it's just an expounding upon those gestures over these different Vibrations of Ancient Incarnations as the piece goes on. 

[Aaron] Isn't, isn't that beautiful how even in, as we were talking about avant garde and experimental music, there are some elements of composition and organization that still stick through sometimes. Oh, man. Every once in a while on this podcast, I come up with an assumption or an analysis that is like spot on to something I haven't been told. And then there's times like this where I said in my notes to you, quite frankly, I've never analyzed a piece like this before. And I completely miss that fact that you just gave. But that is really cool.

[Daniel] Everything in music is hidden in plain view, you know, and I was, of course, I'm so close to this piece. I wrote the damn thing, like I, you know, have, I have memories of nudging things in order to try and get it to fit on the illustrator. So I'm pretty intimately familiar with it. But at the same time, I had a great professor at one point say music theory is hearing music as blank. And you fill in that blank hearing music as form, hearing music as timbre, hearing music as organization, hearing music as sound, you know, and your theory of music can be I'm just going to sit here and listen to something. There's times that I hear music and just walking down the street and I smile to myself because I remember that I'm alive. And I think the idea of music that organized sound, we organize stuff in our heads. I hear music in a significant other's voice. I hear music in so many things that have absolutely nothing to do with people. Like, I really, you know, that's just that's just me, though. And that's part of my deep listening journey as you know, I've been educated through Pauline Oliveros ways. 

[Aaron] You know, I started this podcast for a handful of reasons. But, you know, when you do a venture like this, you have to justify it to yourself in some way, because it's like, do you would enjoy it enough? Is the, like, literal fiscal cost worth it? What are you getting out of it other than just personal enjoyment? You know, all those sort of things, because, you know, the weekly uploads for a single person, this takes a lot of work for myself. But it's things that you said just right there about how you interpret or that quote you were giving about interpreting what music theory means. You know, when I return in the fall in a couple of weeks to the classroom, I'm going to be teaching intro to songwriting. And it's going to be non music majors either, which I'm really excited about. There's just certain things that I've heard from people on this podcast. And I would put what you just said about how music theory can mean different experiences and things to people up there. And there's like the ideas that I'm taking away from this project that I've undergone from listening to people and interviewing them, such as yourself, that I can't wait to share these concepts and ideas with other people. And so I want to compliment you. I've not heard someone speak about, I've heard someone speak about composition that way, but I've never heard someone put music theory in that context of it is open to you. What music theory means to you when you're listening and analyzing, even if it's not readily apparent, is going to mean something drastically different to the person next to you, even if that is not talked about that often in a music theory context. So I thank you for that, because I log that in my head as something that I'm going to keep on to. And I'm excited to share with other people. So, and speaking of music theory, before we move on to the final part of this podcast, I just want to give you the courtesy to ask if there's anything else that you want to say specifically about The Vibration of Ancient Incarnations. 

[Daniel] It was, I mean, it was a joy to create. It was a joy to perform. If you do what I do sometimes and listen to 20 seconds of it and go, okay, I get it and turn it off. That's your prerogative. That's fine. Or if you're like, you know what? I'm going to sit in my room, sit on my bed, turn out the lights and just go deep with this piece and go weird and try and hear every single word and try and feel every single timbre and try and listen to every single voice and try to open my ears as deep as possible. Cool. The invitation is always there for this work and every single else, every single other piece of aural stimuli that enters your ears. I like to say a phrase of this music is always available to you. So if you hear your footsteps as music, if you hear the rustling of leaves as music, it's always there. It's always available to you. So, you know, happy listening to this piece if you so desire or to everything else that aurally stimulates you. 

[Aaron] Happy listening indeed. And so typically I start this off by asking what music means to you. But I think maybe you can say to the different, or to the contrary. But I think we have a pretty good idea. You weave in, and that's, I really like that about, you is that you weave in what it means to you in how you talk about your work. It's not separate, which, you know, I would say makes sense. So let's talk. Yeah.

[Daniel] There's no there's no differentiation between like I've had, you know, I'm at the tail end of a PhD. So everyone's kind of asking me like, oh, so what are you going to do for your career? And I'm like, I'm…

[Aaron] You've been doing it.

[Daniel] I'm doing it. Yeah. It just looks different than, like, the oh, I get a job and do that until I die. Like, sorry, I know that's being blunt and I don't mean to be like, you know, against the idea of stability. But the thing is, like the way that I live my life, the art, the like, there's no differentiation. It's like what I said before, when I'm playing in a dance class or when I'm sitting and writing notes or when I'm teaching or when I'm just interacting with someone on the street, like there's no there's no difference of energy. It's still just me coming out. And I try to just do it with a sense of gratitude, not even joy, because I'm not one to bliss myself out. I recognize that there are things that happen in my life that suck, things that are hard. And don't I know there's been a lot of that recently. But at the same time, and sorry, I'm going to leave it as cryptic as that. But at the same time, you know, there's so much to look forward to, always. And so I don't want to undercut the joy of now, and the presence of now because I'm too busy fretting over what happened before or anxious about what's to come. So music is a way for me to come back into that presence and just enjoy that moment.

[Aaron] Well, speaking of fretting, maybe this will not be positive. Who knows? What are your views on the current landscape of composition, your field?

[Daniel] Ah, I think it's interesting how we've it's like what you've kind of hinted at, maybe tangentially before is that it's very polarized. There's an extremity that's going on now. There's the sound that is consciously crafted to be easily accessible and sound that is consciously crafted for the sake of exploration. And I'm not even going to say for artistic means, because I think there, there are ways that hedonism finds its way into both of those extremes and those polarities. But I think that the state of composition, I can only really speak for myself and I can speak to the triumphs of my peers. I love supporting my, my compositional friends. I think, you know what, how I'll answer this is to say, is to say these words. I went through a time in my life where I was trying to, quote unquote, make it musically. I was trying to support myself off of gigging and like, you know, things of that nature. And having a competitive attitude about that, I realized, was causing me so much grief and stress and depression and anxiety and frustration and anger and like all of these negatively balanced emotions. And when I started to realize that I could just be happy and share in a colleague's joy in their new work, in their new piece, then I stopped being so, like, kind of, competitive about it. And I started realizing so much more and more like, oh, this is what people mean by community. And it's a practice. It's hard if you're trying so hard to do something yourself and you hear someone else who does it so effortlessly. It's okay if your initial reaction is frustration, but find a way to move past that, to just share in that person's joy in that moment. And you end up going so much farther, both individually and as a group. And I've learned that I'm surrounded by phenomenal, phenomenal musicians, performers, composers, educators. If I see someone who's doing something to a high degree and I realize that I can learn something from that, just learn it. If we drop that personal, like, oh, my gosh, this person's better than me. Yeah, guess what? There are a lot of people who are going to be quote unquote better than you at something. But if you recognize how or why or what they did to get there or by what means that, you know, everywhere a rabbit can go about what it is that they're doing, then you'll learn something. And ultimately, we create a community and we educate ourselves and that broader community at the same time. 

[Aaron] Yes, very well said. Very well said. You know, the element of competition in composition, as you were just saying, is something that's always been apparent to me and probably most people. I mean, you're putting out a large piece of yourself, you know, you've got composers revered through history. It's just like an inherent human thing, right? You know, one thing I thought was that, we're going to switch over to music theory here and your views on that. One thing that I found interesting about the music theory field is, I mean, there's always competition and research in any field, especially STEM, right? But I was kind of shocked at the, it's not see, I would say compositional competitiveness is a little bit more on the surface. Like, it's easier. It's easy to see how it would be competitive. I mean, you literally have competitions and festivals. I mean, like, it's right there. You either get the money or you don't get the money because your composition, your composition was, quote unquote, better for the jury that decided, right? Pivoting to music theory, it's not as on the surface as composition, but damn it, there's a lot of competition with that, too. And I don't understand why, really, because, you know, if someone succeeds with an article being published, good for them. That doesn't take anything away from me. You know, that person expressed some ideas that they spent a long time on. I don't really get a whole lot of it, but good for them. I'm just surprised by it's, you know, I tell, I tell my parents who are not at all musicians, they were in the corporate hospitality business for most of their life. And my mom most recently is a pre-K teacher. And so I explain some of the more, let's say, not fun aspects of higher education collaboration and so on, whatever. You all get it. And they're like, oh, well, Aaron, you know, that's, that's just business. And it is. That is true. That is just life and career. But what's sad is sometimes as an art community and academic and learning community, we try to say that we are a lot better sometimes. And then the same people who say, oh, you know, we're just a group of people who are here to support each other. And then, like three months later, you hear that they said some not nice things about another colleague or something. It's just it's really disappointing sometimes when you think, oh, I wasn't expecting this sort of stuff at all. So I'm not trying to frame your answer in a negative light of music theory or academia, but just to comment on that. So what are your views of, let's say, the music academic system and let's throw music theory in there?

[Daniel] Yeah, I think… 

[Aaron] That's a really big question. You can take that in a lot of different ways.

[Daniel] Absolutely, absolutely. But I've got, I've got a little, a little tether here I think I could tug on. I wish it was more inclusive. And what I mean by that is I wish that some of the barriers to a more expansive and broad educational experience were removed. And part of that is actually what, you know, at least tangentially, some of my research was about, was about the championing of composition departments within an educational environment. There are so many musical composition departments and there are far less so of improvisation departments. And yes, there's jazz, you know, there, there absolutely. I, but the, that's almost not, I'm so hesitant to say the word problem because it's simply just how things are today. It's how things came to be this way now. But there's a bias in a lot of the way that the Western world operates where we say the word improvisation and we think, oh, jazz. Like literally, you did. 

[Aaron] I said that, I referenced that.

[Daniel] Yeah. But improvisation, it's, it's not just jazz. It's Raga, it's Dastgah, it's Maqam. It's, there's so many, like, there's so many different ways to experience stylized improvisation. And that's stylized there as a capital S because it's, it's experiencing expressing through a, through an idiom. And that's partially what my compositional intent is, is to how can we broaden that referent, that stylized idiom to encompass these freedoms. In a way it's kind of similar to, like, a modernist mindset where you're like, oh, trying to make something new and no to virtuosity and no to expressiveness and no that, I'm not, I don't think of it so severely is that. But I think that if the academic environment and if the state of music today was more willing to grapple with the vulnerability of improvisation and the risk of individual expression from an earlier educational standpoint, like if we could find a way that we could teach oboe players how to play jazz, even though the oboe is not necessarily part of the jazz idiom, you know what I mean? Like in high school programs, if your program, if your high school and middle school program is blessed to have a big band, guess what? If you don't play trumpet, trombone or saxophone, you're probably not going to play a horn instrument in that band. Whereas can you imagine what it would be like if we were open to the idea of being like, hey, let's like, let's get some string players in there. Let's get like, you know, let's, let's get the let's get the, this gets really good at marimba.

[Aaron] I'll tell you, in violin pedagogy, improvisation is not something even on the top 10 list of most violin professors. 

[Daniel] That's what and that's, that's exactly what I'm pointing at is the fact that just pedagogically, it's not there. We don't have any kind of, and we, and we're not trying to. I'm sorry, that's it. That is an opinion that, express opinion. But generally, like other than like Stepane Grappelli, I can, I can barely name another, like, jazz violinist. You know what I mean? To the extent that like but but what are we what are we really doing about that other than going, oh, that's too bad. Well, guess I'm just going to keep doing the thing that I'm doing and hope that maybe someday someone will really look at that and push back against it. And I, and I have to say, I, I appreciate and understand, you know, earlier in the podcast, I don't know whether it's going to be in the edits and whatnot. But earlier in the podcast, you've said things about, like, you know, when I say the word avant garde, I want to make sure that I'm not coming off as pejorative. And I want to and I know why you're saying that, because at one point in my paper, my dissertation, one of the critiques I got from one of my committee members was like, hey, you need to be kind of careful about the way that you talk about academia. And the thing is, frankly, he was right. I was being pretty blunt and I, and I, I'll say, amended it. But the fact is, is that the things that I wanted to say weren't they weren't damning in and of themselves. But it was a, like, hey, if we just like let this thing continue to happen, guess what?  Nothing changes. And part of why I'm writing this is that I would love for something to change.

[Aaron] I, I really appreciate that. I suppose because this is a podcast and so it's just talking and we're talking about talking and so on. But one of the things that I just want to put my head through the wall sometimes with some of my graduate classes, you have so many, at least in my experience, not just here, I'm not calling out professors here. You have a lot of people who are in positions of power that they're like, yeah, this is a problem we have. Doesn't that suck? Anyways. 

[Daniel] But the thing is, it's like, I mean, survival, survival mode is real.

[Aaron] Survival mode is real.

[Daniel] A lot of people are just trying to get by, man. Like, that's just that's the way it be sometimes.

[Aaron] Well, with all your improvisation, it sounds like you're playing composition on hard mode. I'm not going to lie.

[Daniel] It's, there, there have been times that it has smacked of stress. Yes. 

[Aaron] Really? 

[Daniel] Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, and I, I both say that kind of facetiously, but also like, it's really true that there are times when I've when I've questioned, like, why the hell am I doing this? But then when I come to the rehearsal or the fruition of the performance, it reminds me, it reminds me why all over again. And it's this cycle of, like, renewal and rebirth through that compositional and improvisational process. But, yeah, I think it's easy. Not easy. That's not the word I want to use there. I think that it's common to step into a position, you know, even with schools that are trying to revamp their theory curriculums, of which there are many right now, I'm sure. That I hope they're still on that path and on that journey and really, you know, grinding that axe. But it's really a question of like, do you have the time and the space? And do you, do you know what you're not even know what you're doing? Have you taken risks to lead up to that point? That's partly, I mean, full disclosure of whether this happens or not. What I want to do is to generate an improvisation course similar to, like, George Lewis. Columbia has a fantastic, like, I actually got so lucky, I found an old syllabus of his from literally 20 years ago that outlines these beautiful, these beautiful improvisation, like improvisation and race, improvisation and gender, improvisation and social class, improvisation and cultural expression. Improvisation. I was like, oh, my God, this is 20 years ago. This was 20 years ago. Why is this not commonplace? This is brilliant. Sorry.

[Aaron] No, it's okay. It's, no, it's fine. I mean, to use an analogy that you did earlier, why take the time to build a brand new fence in the field when you can just buy it pre-built?

[Daniel] Right. 

[Aaron] I love it. And also to sympathize with what you were saying about criticisms of academia in your work. There have been times where I'm about to submit a paper at night where it's like a meta commentary on whatever we're talking about. And I think, Aaron, you still have to go to class tomorrow. Don't write that. Take that out.

[Daniel] And that's the thing. If you ruffle the wrong feathers, man, you kind of blacklist yourself. That honestly, and I say that very tongue in cheek, but it's very much so true. 

[Aaron] It is true.

[Daniel] Like you need to be aware. And the thing is, how do I say this? There are ways to critique things without going on the offensive and without making people feel as though they're on the defensive.

[Aaron] Yes.

[Daniel] That was partly that's partly why giving your paper to someone else to even just read it and get their own eyes on it and edit it is always a really good idea. Because, you know, and I do that with compositions before I send in works like this, I'll hand it over, like, say I have a piece that I have a woodwind part, right? And I have this graphic stuff. I'll hand it to them and be like, just curious, what would you do with this?

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Daniel] Like what you, you know, and then when they give me like, I guess I would approach it as blank. I go, beautiful. Thanks. Be an idea, you know, not even the end all be all.

[Aaron] Peer review, not, not the formal process, but just the idea of peer review is always important to have other people. And so we're coming to the end of this podcast. And so I feel bad asking you this because literally hours ago you just finished your Ph.D. But what's next for you?

[Daniel] So very likely I'm going to actually step into the New York City charter school system of teaching music classes for, for kids. And it's funny because I think that, you know, the ideal is like so many people are like, oh, and I landed my, my opening position as, like, a music theory teacher. I'm, I'm okay with stepping out of academia for a moment. And actually, that's not even, geez, it's not even, like, completely true. I am, I'm teaching an online course at Camden County College in New Jersey for world music, world and like global music methods and things of that nature that I've already created the canvas shell for. And it's an asynchronous class. So I am still within the academic sphere, but I'm not standing in front of a bunch of sophomores, you know, expounding upon the finer things like beat meter. And, you know, but I, I'm, I'm very good with kids. I'm really approachable and personable in the classroom environment. And I'm really excited to, to do that as well as on Wednesdays. I was given a class by NYU Tisch to play for ballet. So I'm going to be playing for Tisch a ballet class every Wednesday. And there's a high likelihood that Steps on Broadway, another dance studio around here in the Upper West Side. I'm going to be playing for some classes for them potentially on Saturday. And other than that, teaching lessons, finding freelance work and just taking a really deep breath after finishing this marathon.

[Aaron] You know, the key that you said a really deep breath, not a break, because it doesn't sound like you have one.

[Daniel] Not really. But I mean, I like being stimulated. That's partly why this city, like, really is a good fit for me, because it's such an overstimulation just by walking out on the street. So, and I really appreciate it for that reason. So I'm going to stay here for the foreseeable future and just see what happens. 

[Aaron] Fair enough. Fair enough. So what would be the best way for the audience to contact you with any comments, questions or inquiries?

[Daniel] Oh, absolutely. Definitely a personal email is always a good idea. dan.townsend.music@gmail.com is, I'm very approachable, like email me, whatever. And the other thing is please follow me on Instagram @feelthekeys as in like feel the piano keys. It's just feelthekeys.

[Aaron] Yes. And all of your information will be in the description of this episode, regardless of where someone's listening. But so, okay, we're at the end and I'm going to give you the last little clip here. What would you say to the audience about music, life, academia, music theory, composition, whatever you choose?

[Daniel] This music is always available to you. 

[Aaron] I love it. Nice and simple. And so, okay, well, thank you, Dr. Daniel Townsend for coming on here. We talked about a very wide range of topics, some of them can be typically deeply controversial, and I appreciate yourself for being so open to it and discussing it, especially in such a busy time of your life right now. And again, congratulations on that Ph.D. And I get to call you Dr. Townsend. But to say it formally, thank you again to Dr. Daniel Townsend for coming on to the Theorist Composer Collaboration with your piece, The Vibration of Ancient Incarnations.

[Daniel] Love it. Thank you so much for having me, Aaron. Really appreciate you.

[Aaron] Hello, this is Aaron again, and I want to thank you for listening to this episode of the Theorist Composer Collaboration. I also want to give another big thank you to Dr. Daniel Townsend for coming on to the podcast and for sharing his piece, The Vibration of Ancient Incarnations. Dr. Townsend's contact info is listed both in the description of this episode, as well as on the corresponding contributor page on the TCC host website as well. And I would appreciate it if you could show him some support. This was quite a privilege to speak to Dr. Townsend at such a crowning moment in his academic and broader professional career, and he had a ton of great insight. I really like the analogy of pedagogy and curriculum building is like constructing a fence around a field and setting the parameters. I also really enjoyed our discussion about the avant garde, and as you can hopefully tell in the episode, I tried to very carefully curate the framing of the conversation to be as charitable as possible to avant garde style music, while also approaching often made criticisms, one that I often also make myself, which is the purposeful lack of approachability. Dr. Townsend had a great contribution to that conversation, and I'm again very happy that we were able to have it. I want to again give a very, very special thank you to Dr. Daniel Townsend for coming onto the podcast and for sharing his piece, The Vibration of Ancient Incarnations. For further updates and notifications on The Theorist Composer Collaboration, make sure to subscribe to our email listing on the homepage of our host website, and follow our Instagram and Facebook pages, relevant links in the description. You can listen to future episodes through our host website, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, iHeartRadio, and YouTube, so make sure you subscribe to the platform of your choosing. Again, all relevant links are in the description. TCC episodes are posted weekly on Mondays, and don't miss our weekly blog posts, which go live a few days after a new episode is added. There will be more information about the next guest in the upcoming blog post, and of course in the next full episode. Make sure to follow our social media accounts and relevant streaming platforms because you won't want to miss it. But, until then, this is Aaron, and thank you for joining the TCC.

Transcript edited and formatted by Justine de Saint Mars