9. On My Own - Ben Williams

[Aaron] Hello, and welcome to The Theorist Composer Collaboration, a podcast interview series highlighting modern composers and their compositions, hosted by music theorists. My name is Aaron D'Zurilla, and I'm a graduate music theory student at Florida State University, and I will be your host for today. The music that you were just listening to is an excerpt from the album, On My Own, an album from the composer Ben Williams, who, alongside his music, is the featured guest for this episode. That leads me to welcome Ben Williams himself to the program. How are you?

[Ben] I'm doing good. How are you doing today?

[Aaron] I'm good. I'm good. So, Ben, tell me about yourself professionally, personally, academically, whatever you choose.

[Ben] I mean, I'm just a guy who makes music. It's not very deep. I'm not the academic that everybody else is on this program. I'm just a normal guy who makes music.

[Aaron] Well, there you go. Just a guy out there in the world. Now, for everyone's background, I've known Ben for... how many years is it now?

[Ben] When I was a junior, you were a sophomore, right?

[Aaron] Oh, that's either seven or eight years or something like that.

[Ben] It's a long time.

[Aaron] Yeah, we've known each other since high school. We were stand partners in orchestra. And also, interestingly, Ben, you know, I was thinking about it the other day, you were technically my first ever theory teacher or tutor. Very frustratingly, because I was not a very good student.

[Ben] You did not understand keys at one point. You were struggle bussing out there for a little bit.

[Aaron] I had a particular difficulty with time signatures, too.

[Ben] I remember that. I'm not going to divulge for your audience, but I do remember you made up your own time signature at one point.

[Aaron] Well, no, I'll divulge. I have no shame. Well, I have some, but not in this case. When presented with a 4/4 meter, you know, a simple duple meter, I would say that it's four beats and a four beat measure. And if it was 6/8, I would say it's six beats and an eight beat measure. Which, if that doesn't make sense, congratulations! You know something about music theory. It was quite the unenlightened... Was I a junior in high school? Yeah, I would have been.

[Ben] You started doing theory stuff? You would have been a junior doing theory stuff.

[Aaron] Because you were taking AP music theory senior year.

[Ben] I took it the year before they defuncted it, and you didn't have the opportunity to take it in high school.

[Aaron] I did not. I also found out much later that most of the people, at least who obtained up into grad school, they all had AP music theory. So Manatee County Public Schools showing again their excellence.

[Ben] Yeah, that is very true.

[Aaron] So Ben, how would you describe yourself as a composer or your music in general?

[Ben] I wouldn't categorize myself as a composer. I produce music. I don't... Composing and producing, it's two sides of the same coin, but there's different aspects to either. I'm more of the... I don't write concertos and symphonies and anything elegant in a nature. I like making it raw, natural, dirty in a way, it's how I produce. It's different to how you would make music or how anyone else you've had on this podcast would make music.

[Aaron] Well, yes and no. For example, now the episode just released today, so I don't blame you if you haven't listened to it, but Lucy from the group Violincia said that most of the recordings in their album are recorded and mastered sessions of improv, just jam sessions. So yes and no. Up until this point, possibly yes. I think essentially what you're getting at is that you... Well, I know this because I know you. You do not write your music with staff notation. You write it entirely, correct me if I'm wrong, entirely inside of a DAW or digital audio workstation and mix that with improv. Is that right?

[Ben] It's not improv in a way. I do... Whatever you hear on my tracks is the probably 50th or 60th take of a melody I come up with. We'll get more into this later, I assume. We're going to talk about the production aspect of my side of what I do. But I do lay down basically a simple, I lay down a progression and I just kind of grab my guitar and then I just put it on repeat. I put on the eight bar measure and I just hit repeat and I just go. I work on many different melodies. So whatever you hear is not particularly improv. It is well worked. I do take a lot of time coming up with what I think is the best fit for that particular section of the song.

[Aaron] Oh, I'm sure. So you choose to describe yourself more as a producer. Now you chose not to use the word composer, and not that these labels really matter a whole lot in the end because everyone is essentially a music maker and creates music in some way, it's just through different avenues and different flavors. But you chose not to use the word composer and I'm just interested as... Could you speak a little bit more as to why?

[Ben] In my mind, in my musical background, composers were more of the... In what you study, you don't... You've told me this personally, you study more of the classical romantic Baroque style era coming home in the modern, but you study more of the traditional quote unquote music, because traditional is up for interpretation depending on who you ask. But I find myself more as a... I'm just a modern producer. I don't see myself as a modern composer or a classical composer. I use strings and brass and more traditional music or sorry, musical instruments in my music. But I tend to lean heavily more into not synthesized electronic music per se, but I lean more into MIDIs and synthesizers and a bunch of MIDI plugins and stuff that's more modern and sound. I'm not going out and setting up music, I'm not going up setting up microphones and miking up a whole orchestra for string orchestra. I don't find myself in that particular box as you would say a music maker. I find myself more in the box of a modern producer. I work entirely on the computer. I particularly use work by myself. Everything's digital. I don't use staff notation. I do, I could use staff notation. There is an option in my workstation. If I were to hit a fancy little button, I could have it all printed out. I could print you out a whole staff notation of my music if you wanted me to, but I don't do it on my own. Well, I do, funny, I do do it on my own, but it's not in the sense of how a composer does it. It's more my workflow is more of a producer than a traditional quote unquote composer.

[Aaron] Fair enough. Now I would say that I would, if I didn't know you and I heard all of that, of course I would adopt whatever label you chose for yourself. That's just respectful. But I would still probably classify you as a composer and I think most people would as well. Now that being said, I believe and I think you would agree that your reaction is that the reaction to the idea of composer versus producer, so on, so forth, is really in the connotation and the social aspect. And as we'll talk about later in the podcast, a bit of possibly elitism and a segmenting of musical sounds and capabilities to different areas. So I'm not saying your own opinion of yourself is wrong, but I don't think it's too far to say that much of that is from the cultivated persona that many composers over history have had versus commercial music.

[Ben] I would say it depends on the background people are raised into. Like in your particular field, more people as they got older, I'm assuming when they're young their parents probably had on some classic rock, some 80s, 90s pop, whatever parents were listening to. But as they grew up, their background molded them to what they do now as a, I don't want to say, it depends on, I guess you could say composer, artist, producer, even someone who just plays. You and I both played in high school. We played many, multitudes of different symphonies that you could chair hosts through our time in college or high school and college. And on our off time, you would listen to Rick Astley and I would listen to Steely Dan. You know what I mean? It's not like it molds, personally it molds you into different things, but we find ourselves in different places now. You are an academic and I am just a producer. My background was always more of the modern music. I grew up listening, nowadays I listen to a lot of indie stuff and I grew up listening to a lot of 80s, 90s rock. I'm big on the 70s stuff right now. Love me some good Steely Dan. Eagles kick some butt. I won't curse. Apologies for what I almost just did. Aaron was a, I know Aaron personally, he's a big, he is a big guy at the 70s. We do, we do indulge. He definitely loves some, he loves some BeeGees. I can tell you that he's a big BeeGees man. It all just, it all just, it's your background. It kind of shapes who you are and what you label yourself as. That's what I would say. That's why I see myself more as a producer. But in your background, if you were to write something and you have written your own music before, I don't know if we're going to go into that, but you, I would classify you more as a composer. You stuck to the traditional, more classical roots of writing music and I divulged more to the modern way of writing it.

[Aaron] Yeah, I did for the most part. Part of that was, that was what was necessitated in the composition skills classes in undergrad. Which you could, let's put that off to the side because that's a whole other hour conversation, but that in of itself-

[Ben] I would even say it's, I would also say it's your background in high school too. Cause I don't know if your audience knows this, but you did surprise our shared high school music teacher with your own composition about our class. And I would say it was a pretty good piece of music, but that was all classically notated and it was a good surprise and kind of started you down the path you're on today. And it was a good little surprise, but I would say that it's all about background.

[Aaron] That is true. Yeah, at that point again. Yeah, it's essentially all about background. And I just want to say, you say that I listen to Rick Astley on my off time. Well, now that I'm in grad, now that I'm in grad school, I can listen to Rick Astley on my on time because I did a final presentation on the compositional history of Rick Astley. So the goal of life is to take what you do off time to on time. Sometimes.

[Ben] That's what, that's what life's all about right there. You bet.

[Aaron] So we've been dancing around it a little bit, not really dancing. We've been talking about it broadly, but then you hold a unique, as you've alluded to, or even just said, you hold a unique position as someone who was in academia enough, or at least adjacent, saw it. You took classes, you were in orchestra in college and obviously in high school. You saw a fair amount of it. You were involved at the beginning and you essentially said, no, thank you. You decided that that was not for you. Can you speak to that a little bit?

[Ben] Yeah, I can go back as far as middle school for my academics, I know it's not the most prestigious in any way. I didn't go to any four year university. I'm not a master music, master music degree man or anything of that sort. Like man, like the man talking to me right now. But when I was in middle school, I, we had the, we had the option of going through each different kind of art as a wheel program for nine weeks. And I landed on violin. I don't know why I did. I wanted to play the trumpet, but for some reason, I would assume it was probably cost reasons for my parents, I played violin instead. I went through that for a few years. And once I got to high school and we started thinking about the broader picture of life and you know, life after high school, my, always my goal was to be a director of an orchestra program. I didn't know what capacity it could have been middle school, high school, collegiate, or even in a professional standard in the real world. But that's what I wanted to do. And as I got further into high school, I met, well, we both met the same people, but I met a couple of good friends at the time and we, we all got into recording and we all made songs and we kind of just kind of not, not very often, but we would go in the back of our music room, we had all our, we had a locker in the back of our classroom. We would go in there, set up our phones and just record. And then our good friend Axel would put it into his audio workstation. I'm not sure what he used at the time. I was assuming it was Logic, but we would put it all together. And I kind of switched my perspective. I kind of had an enlightenment of just, I didn't really want to teach. Also because, Aaron contested this, I don't have the particular patience it requires to be an educator. I love kids, that's fine, but I do have a short temper and not in a yelling or getting mad aspect. But I do not, I, if people don't reciprocate to the way I teach, I find it very difficult to keep doing that in a way. And I kind of pivoted to want to become writing music in any capacity. So after high school, we both went to the same, we went same community college. I started in the music program and I lasted a grand total of three days before I realized this is not for me. Because as soon as we got in there, I liked the man to a degree, but Mr. Rex Willis scared the ever living crap out of me with the way he taught music theory. And it's not because I was intimidated. It was like, this is not, I kind of had an awakening of this is not what I wanted to do. Not that I'm, you got anybody in academics and academia can, you know, you can attest to your own personal experiences, but that's just not my particular field. I like, I like being more hands-on, especially with the field I want to pursue. You have to be hands-on. And if I'm being honest, you don't need a very intensive music background to be a big, big producer nowadays. You can just, you can just hire a guy to make your beats. And that's all you need to do as long as you know any, as long as you can keep time. It's kind of the way it goes. But I mean, I'm not the academic type and it kind of shaped me to do what I am now. I like producing. I found that's more comfortable for what I want. I just, it's kind of, you had, it's not an epiphany of any sort, but I just kind of realized this isn't what I wanted to do, being stuck in the academic side was not what I wanted. And after I quit, after those three days, it was actually the third day we had a, there was a class at SCF, it was every Wednesday. It was basically like a show and tell and then, in the dumbest way possible to say it, for any music student to perform a piece.

[Aaron] It was recital hour, not show and tell.

[Ben] I couldn't remember what it was called, just as I call it show and tell.

[Aaron] I like show and tell.

[Ben] I mean, it is what it was basically in a roundabout way. It was a recital hour for all the music students, anybody. And we went through it and our good teacher, I love the man to death, Dr. Pete Carney, put up a little sign by our front door for it was music tech. And that was the only music class I ever took that was ever in the music field in that building. And I took it twice, second time was probably not particularly good by the school because I think it was the same credit, but I got it counted twice. So that's great. And I took that class. I loved it to death. I got me started on working in Logic and that's kind of just where I've come from. And then everything I've learned now, I learned in that class. And it was more of what I wanted to do in the academic sense. And then once I've gotten, once I got out of college, once I graduated, I've kind of just in my off time from work, I just, I write what I can. It's been a little while. I've kind of been musically tapped out for a few months, but I do write here and there and I try to put together what I can. And that's kind of what made me choose a different path. Not that I, I just realized it wasn't for me personally. And myself, I still went to college, I still graduated and I did go to school, but I didn't go for the music sense. That's what took me down.

[Aaron] And it's perfectly respectable. It's important to know what's for you, what's not for you. The worst thing to do is go through four years of school, get a music performance degree and realize you hate it. Or even worse, a music ed degree, because then you get to be a teacher. So I think this gets at an issue that I have a lot of times with academia and other people say that they do too and that's, that's well and good. But something that I find, especially after coming to graduate school, as a pretty constant struggle is a phrase that you said of the academic type. And I can't fault you for classifying it that way. I really can't because that is the reality. It sucks. I don't like it. I mean, Ben, you know me personally. I have like two sides of myself, the much more casual side and then the much more academic. Now there's something to be said about presenting yourself professionally. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing, of course, but there should not be an academic type. Academia should be accessible to all of those who want to be part of a creative, thought provoking process of exploring knowledge, art, music, culture, so on, whatever field you want to say. And it's a real darn shame that you have that impression of it, but I can't fault you in the slightest. I have it too. A lot of people have it. I guess I just find myself more comfortable in that situation. But your viewpoint is not, your viewpoint is in the majority and I agree with you. It really is a shame that it is that way. And we're talking about it generally here because again, that's like a five hour conversation right there and we probably won't get anywhere.

[Ben] Yeah, that could be an eight hour podcast in itself right there.

[Aaron] Oh, it could. I got a bunch of thoughts on that. Yeah, it could. But so yeah, it's a real struggle and it's a real shame.

[Ben] The part of it that turns off people most, it's not that it's, I mean, the type isn't a problem. Once you go in, we do a good enough job and I say good enough job. We had a pretty mediocre high school program ourselves, but they don't ever particularly prepare every single student for what post secondary school is like. Once you get to the collegiate level, especially in your field, you start, you had a pretty good track. You went, you started a community college, you transferred to UF and then you went, you had a good little three step program. I was thrown right into just high school and I stopped at community college, but I felt like even at that level, I had an eye opening moment and said, this just isn't for me. But I don't feel like I was prepared enough to realize what post secondary school was like in that particular regard because they don't, they know, especially for music students, because you know, we were trained as high school orchestra students to go to class, perform, practice outside the class, have rehearsals, perform at a performance and then that's it. We didn't really get taught theory because it wasn't in the budget. We had a, we had a high school theory class that we, that I took that Aaron didn't get to take. We went over this before, but that was the only little bit. That nine month program was the only bit that prepared me for what would have been about six years worth of education. And I don't feel like that's adequate enough, not just for me in particular, I'm speaking as a broad general sense of anybody who wants to pursue anything in music academia that it's not enough to prepare a student for life beyond high school. My program, my, I can, our program was four years worth of music education crammed into nine months and that I don't feel like that's right at all.

[Aaron] I'm going to clout my tongue a little bit about that because there's a lot to be said for and about the AP music theory class.

[Ben] Wait, it was two years, not four. Let me correct myself. It was four semesters worth of education in the, in the nine months. That's what it was. Yeah. Yeah.

[Aaron] But that's a lot. Yeah.

[Ben] That's, that's a lot.

[Aaron] Definitely. It's, it's definitely a lot for any beginner to handle. So you know, that's just a small little taste of all that. We could go a lot more into that, we probably will later. We already kind of jumped the gun on that, but it's fun. But so let's talk about your music, Ben. Now the album On My Own, it released in 2020 and can you talk a bit about what led up to its creation? You talked about some of that, that music production class that you took with Dr. Pete Carney at State College of Florida, but what led up to its creation and what was it like working on it?

[Ben] Yeah, there, there were a couple of different things I did leading up to this. I think most of these videos are now private on my YouTube channel, which is not linked, but if anybody does want to reach out, you can, I'll let you, I'll let you into the vault one would say of my old music, that's not great. Not that I'd say my music is great in any capacity, but the first stuff I wrote wasn't particularly great, but I started taking that class in 2018 and I started fully making music in 2019 once I had the program on my own at home. I started learning in Logic, Logic Pro X, which is an Apple, Apple DAW, Digital Audio Workstation and I learned that for about, I don't know, some August, December, so about five months in total, four or five months around that point. And around Christmas time that year, my parents got me a Mac computer that I still have. I don't use it much anymore. I do work more on Windows' side. I'm trying to learn FL Studio currently, but I still write in Logic sometimes. And I got, I got that laptop from my wonderful parents and I also, at the time I bought a suite that had Logic on it. And at that point I started working more on my own stuff. I would make about two to three minute songs, all instrumental, which is my album is now, but it's not as refined. I learned to refine as I move on, as I moved on with it. I took that class for a few semesters. I took a class for a couple of semesters. I didn't take the second semester until about late, it was second semester or fourth semester of my college career. So that was early 2020, which was great, because we all remember what happened four years ago at this point. And I started writing the little songs at that point. I took the class again with Carney and we were getting the swing of it. There was even a project I did at that point where I had Aaron over here play violin on one of the tracks. It's not on my album at all, but it was a fun little student class project.

[Aaron] I did a terrible job.

[Ben] You did not. You did, I will say this. You did a better job than some of the other performers did that day.

[Aaron] Well, that, I think I did a god-awful job, actually.

[Ben] No, you did a good job. I can tell you that. You performed well. I gave you a pretty simple melody to perform. It worked well with the track. But there was a couple of tracks that are on this album that actually started off as, I think two of these were class projects that I wrote for that class. I do believe Head in the Clouds was one that I wrote that I took, it's heavy J-pop inspired, that Carney wanted us to write a final, it was the final presentation. He wanted us to write a full song. And that song, in a less refined state, was what I put out as my music theory or my music tech final. I think I got a good score. I remember getting like a 98 in the class, so I think I got a good score on that. But that started up as a class project. And then COVID hit and we all had to get stuck inside in our homes. And I took online school at that point. I was, you know, I took online classes, Aaron did as well. But, you know, we started going back in, back half of the second semester of COVID. And around that time, as I was doing orchestra, I finished my classes and then I would just get on my computer. I would just get to work. I would sit down. I would just grab my guitar and I would just get to work. My process starts off, we can probably go more in the process in the band. I won't go too far into that. But what really drove me to start it was I just wanted to have something in my catalog in case anybody asks, what do you want to do? What is it you want to pursue? What do you do? Like, do you have any fun hobbies? And I usually go, actually, I write music. And they go, really? It's a fun little thing to tell people at work sometimes. But it really just drove, in a way, I wouldn't say passion project, but what drove me to start it was just a desire to put my own sound into the world. Have something that I would call my own as my sound that is unique to me. And yeah, that's really what, that's really the whole backstory. It's not super interesting. You know, I would spend about five hours a day on the album, or about five, around four or five a day for a few months. And then I would, by the end of it, it was, it all came together.

[Aaron] That's a lot of hours per day, though. That adds up pretty quick.

[Ben] Well, because it would be, I would usually do classes from like 9.30 to 12.30, 12.30 to 1. And then after that, from like, until I ate dinner, I would just kind of work on it off and on. Not like, not five hours fully dedicated to doing a particular thing would be about like an hour or two at a time, take a break, come back for another hour, that sort of thing.

[Aaron] Yeah. So until we get into specific tracks and the overall album, I have a quick question about, so you know, I have mild training in music technology or DAWs as well from classes I took at University of Florida. But you are definitely a lot more experienced in that. Can you tell me or tell the audience? So you've used Logic and what's the other one you're using?

[Ben] Oh, I've also used on Windows. There is FL Studio, which is more, Logic is more of a, I knew the word a long time ago. I don't use words, I forget them. But it's a straight line DAW. It is mainly, Logic is a great recording software. FL Studio is a good, it's also a good recording software, but it's also great for anybody in the rap, hip hop, any sort of that sort of bubble of music making. It's got a great in-software beat maker and it's got, it's more of a, I would say traditional, pop is the word I'd use because it is most rap music nowadays is pop music, but that sort of studio or that sort of DAW.

[Aaron] How would you compare it, sorry to cut you off, but how would you compare it to Ableton and Pro Tools?

[Ben] Ableton, Ableton is a great, if you like making loops, if you like making four beat loops, Ableton is your bread and butter. That DAW is great for anybody making short, sweet, any kind of loop. And Pro Tools is just the industry standard of, Pro Tools is great. It is a great recording software, great for mixing and mastering. It is like, it is daddy's Logic. It is your dad's Logic. It's what it is.

[Aaron] It is your dad's Logic.

[Ben] Yeah, it's more in depth. It's great. It's a great recording tool. I don't use it personally only because it is so darn expensive. It is crazy expensive.

[Aaron] I have a particular bone to pick with the parent company of Pro Tools, Avid, because they are also the parent company of Sibelius, which is a music notation software. And I made, you know what, I'm gonna go out there, I'm gonna say it. I made a deal with the devil when I signed up for Sibelius Ultimate, because it says, when you sign up for the subscription, a monthly subscription. But they don't tell you that it's a year contract that is a monthly subscription. So even if you're bankrupt, they will keep charging you for that year. I want to move to Dorico so bad, because they also have a discounted Sibelius conversion price. I have been stuck with Sibelius for so long, because then, this past year, I said to myself, once that contract is done, I'm moving away from the loan shark known as Avid.

[Ben] They're really bad at just taking your money, I can tell you that for sure.

[Aaron] Yeah, but I missed the date, and if I wanted access to any of my files, I had to sign the contract again. So I'm stuck in it for another year of Avid.

[Ben] Avid's not a great... Pro Tools is good. I can't speak much about Sibelius, more than you can probably go on for hours about it.

[Aaron] It's a beautiful program, it's really great, but it is such a predatory pricing model. So thank you for that insight about different DAW workstations, digital audio workstations. So the album On My Own, we're going to talk about a couple tracks individually, but I'm going to say what my impressions are of the album, and I just want to hear your response or your opinion of this. Is, I would say more important than any individual track on the album, you are going for an overarching aesthetic. It has similar qualities throughout most of the tracks, and as a package, the album together, it is really seeking, I'm not going to say a specific aesthetic.

[Ben] No, you can, I'd say that's accurate.

[Aaron] Okay, well, I'm trying to come up with words, adjectives to describe it, but how would you describe the aesthetic and the vibes, essentially, of your music?

[Ben] I've always, I've tried to be, if anybody does listen to the album after this podcast, I would always, I try to make it upbeat, but also feel like it's just, I don't want to say chill, because that's not the best word to use in the professional standard, but it's very, I'd say calm, chill, just, it's not heavy, it's not music you have to listen to to pick out the nuances of what's going on. It's something you can just put on in the background, don't have to pay too much attention to and just relax. If you want to listen to it, there's stuff in there you can listen for, but I feel like it's more just easy listening is the best way to say it. It's not anything thought-provoking in a way, it is just very much calm, easy listening.

[Aaron] You know, I was thinking of essentially the same things, but I didn't want to say easy listening or all that to give it any less value in its listening experience, because I think there's actually incredible value in easy listening. I don't know if people know that, I did not know this. I can't quote specific statistics, but this kind of music, your album, and what you produce is some of the highest, if you go off of streams per year, this kind of music is some of the most popular out on the market, because there are millions of people where their primary mode of music consumption is chill, easy listening. I'm not going to call it ambient, that's a little bit different, but things that can exist in the background and in the foreground and just be a part of your day in a non-invasive space. So that's actually your music, you're saying that it's not special or whatever, which don't be hard on your own self, but-

[Ben] Yes, I wouldn't say it's not special, but everything's different in its own regard. I don't hold it up to any high standard, personally, anybody else can, but I personally, myself, I make music. If you like it, great. If you don't, that's also great. Opinions are there.

[Aaron] Well, that is a very healthy mindset to have, but I think your music is representative and a great example of what so many people that we often don't, when I say we, I guess I'm talking about the academic system because that's what I'm part of, we don't really discuss that when there are so many millions of people where that is their primary or daily mode of music consumption. And so, yes, you say, you know, it's not necessarily music you would sit down and be like, oh, this chord to this chord to this chord, and then this appoggiatura, so on and so forth, but to understand how this connects with people, how does it fit into their life in every day, I think is really important. And so in that way, I think your music has, you know, yeah, it holds a different kind of space in people's lives. So you mentioned this before, but a through line throughout all the different tracks is the melodic development and the different motifs are typically outlined through electric guitar. And as you said, you would sit down with a chord loop or you would set something to a loop to different sections. And essentially, through what sounds like trial and error over many hours, figure out what you like and what you don't like with your guitar. What drew you is, I know for quite a while, your primary instrument was violin, obviously, we were an orchestra together, but what draws you to the guitar as your main mode of expression in that sense?

[Ben] It comes out of, I would say it comes from both a necessity and curiosity. I would say necessity because guitar is the easiest thing anybody can record. All you need is I have, I got the, in front of me, I have a fancy little focus, right? Which is my audio interface. That's what I'm looking for. My audio interface sitting in front of me. All you need is any, and you need an input and an output and you can just plug input into your, into the focus, right? Output into the guitar and you can go record direct input. And that is, that was the easiest way for me to get my ideas essentially like, you know, like how it was the easiest way for me to convey my musical ideas, I think is the best way to say it. I, I, I always, I kind of, I started on guitar during high school. I wasn't, you know, I wasn't, I wouldn't say I'm very great now. I'm passable at most. I know a lot of chords. I know everything is on the neck, but I, I, like Aaron said, I started out on violin for a long time. I played for 11 years. I started in middle school, kept going through college. I'm still on and off about it now. Might go back. That's part of the conversation, but learning, learning violin and then being that as my main drive to going to guitar was a shock. It was definitely a lot different because it, it fundamentally, they're similar instruments, but technically stylistically, they're very different. But I feel like if I were to just play violin on the main melody of these tracks, it would be a different sound. And I didn't feel like it would, it was not what I wanted to put out. I feel like guitar is much more of a malleable sound. You can make it sound what, in a way, you can make it sound like whatever you want, whatever it fits best for the particular track. And in that way, I'd say creatively was the other drive because it is, it is, it is essentially a blank canvas in terms of what you can do with it. You can throw on a thousand different effects. You can throw on a different guitar entirely and you know, different, different guitars have different sounds. I've recorded with, I had, my dad had a couple of telecasters I used to record. I use those in that. I have a telly now. It's like a strat. It's fake telly, but everything's got a different sound to it. And that's kind of, in a way that's what drives it because it's not always about achieving the same sound. It's always creatively, I think is, it's a good thing. That's the best way to say that. It's kind of what just drove me to do it. I love violin to death and I still want to pick back up again someday, but for the time being, it's just been guitar because I resonate more on the level with the guitar. It'd be great if I was, it'd be great if I was the next Jimi Hendrix of any sort.

[Aaron] I think everyone is kind of betting on that in the back of their head.

[Ben] Everybody, everybody does. A little bit, I guess. Yeah.

[Aaron] So speaking of different sounds, let's get into some specific tracks. Earlier, you said that Head in the Clouds has a J-pop inspired sound. Can you define that for me? I'm not, I'm not very familiar with J-pop at all.

[Ben] It's really weird because I am, I am, I am a very American man and you wouldn't expect this of me. But I do love a good Japanese pop sound. And I, my particular era that I do thoroughly enjoy is mainly from like 80s to 90s, going back a little bit in the 70s because there's a couple, there's really great artists in the 70s. But they have a particular sound that I feel like just, that just kind of just sits well with me. And you know, it's hard to just explain, but I like, I don't want to say I like the vibe, but I feel like the vibe of it is just, it's great. And I listened to a lot of it at the time. And I just, I wanted to make my own song in that sort of vein. You know, I have my own, it's my own style, but the chords and the way the melody goes is very heavily, definitely 70s and 90s Japanese pop inspired that I feel like, I just like the sound, I wanted to make my own mark on that sort of sound.

[Aaron] And for listeners who want to hear more about, because you know, when you hear about J-pop and K-pop, it's typically artists in the past 20 years, I would go to say, because that's when it really started to blow up a lot in the Western market, especially America, United States. But what, what kind of artists from the 70s and 80s for J-pop could you recommend?

[Ben] I think my heaviest influence, if I could find his name. The sound, definitely a particular sound that inspired it. I even, I think I used a similar chord progression, but I tweaked the key, because I think Head in the Clouds is an F sharp, but I used the chord progression for, I think the song in English is called Crystal Dolphin by Kingo Hamada, it's on his album Midnight Cruising. That whole album is great, but that particular song, I used that progression, put my own spin on it, changed the key so it's not direct plagiarism.

[Aaron] Inspiration. We say inspiration. I say inspiration. 

[Ben] Well, the music industry would call it theft.

[Aaron] Yes, they would. The Marvin Gaye estate will take another victim. Marvin, yeah.

[Ben] Poor Ed Sheeran. No, but there's also another great artist I love, if I can, I'm going on too badly to speak. His name is Tatsuro Yamashita, he's got a great song called Sparkle, that's another, anything in his catalog, you would have to go on YouTube for him, he never commercially mass produced his music. It was really only in the physical media department, and after the 90s, he kind of just stopped putting music out entirely, but everyone was classic tracks. He has an official YouTube page now, because he got, I guess he got so much, he got so many, you know, like, hey, please put your music out, because we love your music and we'll listen to it. He caved in and put, I think arguably his best song Sparkle on YouTube, even everybody wants to, anyone that's listening can go listen to it. One person, one of my favorite songs, it is just a great time. I have no idea what the song's about. I wish I spoke Japanese so I could give anybody a clear insight, you know, I speak a little Spanish, a little Portuguese, I don't speak any Japanese. I wish I could tell you what the song is about, but it's a great listen, definitely heavily inspires me still to this day, and anybody should give it a listen if they want to.

[Aaron] Alright, great, thank you for sharing that. Now to talk about another track on On My Own, I particularly, you know, on these interviews, I like to bring up near the end of the middle section, essentially just a part of whatever work I'm looking at that I just really like. I don't have too much insight really to say, but my favorite track I think on your album is Feeling Alive. And I think it's partially the timbre of the guitar. I just, I don't really, can't really describe it other than I just really like it, and I really like your contrapuntal motifs that you have in the horn section that you added onto that. And I don't really have a question, can you just talk about Feeling Alive?

[Ben] Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say particularly it's my favorite track on the album, but in a way, I feel like it's my favorite in terms of how the whole track came out, because it started a little rough. I didn't like the mix in the first go around that I did of it that I put out. It's in the vault on my YouTube channel, as I said before, there's an early mix, it is not great, everything was very, it was very clippy, it still is on the on the finished mix, but that's because of Spotify compression and Logic over over compressing the bounce, which I can't fix because every time I try to do it comes out kind of clippy on some of the high parts, which you can hear in the track. I do apologize if it throws anybody off. This was a particular track that I just, it all, out of anything on this album, I think it came the most naturally in terms of just writing. The melodies came easiest, the overall progression was very simple, but I feel like in a way that makes it's got a little bit of charm to it. It's not too complex chords, they're not complex at all, but I just like the way that everything came together in the end. Most of my tracks have a little bit of horn on them, I feel like I can't remember which other one has horn on it, but I think Butterflies also has a little bit of horn on it as well. This was a song that I really leaned heavily into, really into the just having, like you said, juxtapositional horns just everywhere. I feel like it adds, it's a different kind of quality than the rest of the songs in a way. It gives it a more, it just gives a different quality. I can't say upbeat, I mean it's supposed to be more upbeat. The song is called Feeling Alive. It's supposed to be like a happy track. It's not supposed to be I'm feeling alive because I'm going to die in two weeks sort of track.

[Aaron] All right, all right, Ben. Okay.

[Ben] I don't know, but yeah, it all just, I liked the sound of the horns I found in my program and I was like, I'm going to use these and I just wanted to, it was, I wanted to be different. I just wanted to be a little different on the track. I mean there's different sections of the song. Once you get past the second, I would say verse, you can quote, quote, quote, it's not really a verse, but the way I structured it is a verse. The sort of breakdown part where it's just, the first part is just guitar and bass guitar. I wanted to emulate a heartbeat sound in a way. So the melody is the guitar, you know, obviously, but then the bass is supposed to simulate a heartbeat, the feeling alive, you know, just an underlying, the underlying pulse that keeps the track moving forward. And then once you get into the breakdown, it grows more and goes back into the final chorus where it is just more, I'd say I just let, you take the lid off and let everything out sort of thing.

[Aaron] Well, I'm really glad I asked because I didn't pick up on that bass part at all. So that's really cool.

[Ben] Yeah. I try to, I try to put in a little bit of, I try to give these tracks a life in a different sense, not, you know, everything, feeling alive. I'm trying here, but I want to give each a different quality, like a different sort of, when you listen to it, you can try to pick up what I'm putting down in a sense, like having the bass be the heartbeat. If I can talk on other tracks I have in Summertime, the entire backing track is audio I found of just people in the park. And just feeling summertime basically. Just feeling the air and the sun, feeling the outside world and just enjoying being outside.

[Aaron] So that was not, I thought that was stock audio, honestly.

[Ben] No, that is, I, that is, I can't remember the website, but it was something Dr. Carney gave us and I went on that website and that was somebody, somebody had about two and a half minutes, I'd stretched out a little bit towards the end, but he, he had a microphone, software use audio, no copyright on it. And he put it down in the middle of the park and just let it record for two minutes. And that is just the sound of people in the park just enjoying their day. And I wanted that to be the underlying feeling of what the track was about something else. My personal favorite track is the last track. The first half I wanted, it's called I Want To Be With You. It's a little slow at the beginning of the start. It's just guitar and bass. But it picks up more when the drums come in. It's my personal favorite because I feel like I really, I hit the nail on the head and the particular guitar sound I wanted to be at the end of that particular track, and I like the overall mix. I like the melody and I just like how everything sort of came together in a sense in that track. But I have been told quite a few times that Feeling Alive seems to be people's favorites and I can see why.

[Aaron] Really? Interesting. Well, I guess I fall into that, but thank you for sharing that about the, all the different tracks. So we're going to be moving, we're going to be moving into our, the last section of this podcast. Is there anything else you want to say specifically about the album On My Own?

[Ben] I'm not in particular. I think we covered almost all the ground we could have. I would, I would just say to anybody who's listening, give it a listen. I'm not, I'm not insisting, but if you want to give it a listen, I'm assuming Aaron will include my personal Instagram in this. That's the best way to reach me. Anybody wants any inquiries about anything else, talk about it and you can shoot me a message. And if you have any other personal questions you want to ask, I will, I will definitely be there to answer.

[Aaron] Well, yes. Well, if he's not going to insist, I am going to. Go and listen to On My Own available on Spotify. And of course, as Ben just said, those things will be available and I'll remind you at the end of the show.

[Ben] I believe it's on everything.

[Aaron] Oh, it is?

[Ben] I would have to check. I think you might have to pay unlimited. Let me, I will tell everybody at the end, I will check real quick. We can continue on, but I will, you can check. I will check.

[Aaron] Okay. So, this is the last section of this podcast, Ben, I'm going to give you a very open-ended, loaded question. What does music and writing music mean to you? You've already spoken to this a bit about being able to put your sound out into the world, but just music in general, can you expand on what that means to you?

[Ben] You gave me, it's such a, this is like a, it's like a slow pitch on the field. You gave me the easiest question you could ever ask. I said jokingly. I don't know, it, that is, there is no real answer to this question, as you said, but I, music to me, I've never found something more in my life that I have loved more than music. While I'm at work and my quite literally boring job, I usually have a headphone in and whenever I'm doing any little menial tasks, I like having music in. I like listening to music as much as I can. It's just, I feel like not to get any altruistic or, you know, anything of that sort. I feel like it's what gives me my purpose. It's what kind of drives me being creative, being a music artist. I love doing it. It is sad. I can't do it full time at the moment. You know, it does not pay any sort of money. I feel like in total, I think I checked my numbers today. I've made about 30 bucks over the last four years in terms of streams.

[Aaron] Hey, if it makes it, if it makes you feel better, you've made more money making music than I have. So I guess that's something, 

[Ben] I guess that's true. And I guess making music, just making money off my music qualifies me as a quote unquote professional in any sort of stance.

[Aaron] Yes, it does.

[Ben] I think they're best as they will. But music to me is just, it's what gives me my purpose. It's what I love more than anything in this world. Anybody that's listening, I get can, you know, I hope they can resonate and sound off on that. It's just what I love. It's, it's just, it's great. I feel like you can always find yourself in anything you want. And I feel like I found that in music. Everything I listen to, I feel like I can find a bit of what I like. Like if I could speak on any sort of personal songs that I love, like I said about the J-pop, I like the overall feeling it gives me, even though those songs can be traditionally very sad, very downlifting. I feel like even though that's that, but you can also relate to, because anybody could be going through a personal struggle, anything of their sort. But even in that sense, music can help you get out of that and help you can stay focused, stay through it. I just, I always say this, I love saying, I think music is just, music is the lifeblood of the world. I think it gives everything, it just help enhances everything around the world. If we didn't have music, I feel like we would, everything will be gray. Everything will be sad, depressing, more so than there already is at the moment. But music, I just, I love music. I'm glad to be a part of the world in some regard. I'm more glad it's not in the academic sense, I feel like I would hate it if I was drilled into me being more of a structured thing. I like it being loose, I like it being easygoing, taking things at my own pace. I just feel like music is just great. That's all, that's a simple way of saying it. I know I sound like a nine year old saying that, but I just love music, it's great.

[Aaron] There's nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that. And on the academic sense, let's flip the coin around and be as honest as you want to, music theory.

[Ben] You know I will.

[Aaron] Yes, I do know you will. Let's be a little bit more specific. I don't think it's too crazy to say that music theory is an essential tool to music making. It just is. I mean you don't need to know all the different complex combinatorial elements of a 12 tone row and so on and all that to be writing good music. But music theory in its fundamentals is an essential tool to music making, even if you don't see it as theory or so on. What does, so you can speak to it if you want, but aside from it being a useful tool, what are your thoughts and feelings of the institutions and institutionalization of music theory?

[Ben] I don't know how long me as Joe Simpleton over here can speak on this, but like I said earlier, I feel like I'm not going to say anything about anything that we went to school with, but I don't feel like, I wouldn't say you don't need to hold the hands of anybody coming into the world, but you also, there needs to be better preparation in terms of when you're in your high school career. Because I can speak in terms of our experiences. The high school we went to, I won't name drop it, Aaron can name drop it if he wants to, but the high school we went to, the only, the music classes you could take were the three different kinds of, I don't even know, oh my god the word escapes me again, programs you could be involved in, you could be part of the orchestra, the band, or the choir. That was almost the entire extent. For orchestra, me and Aaron both involved in this. We were in the Fiddler's group, we would basically just play fiddle music every few days, and...

[Aaron] That was a great time. It was a great time.

[Ben] It was a fun time. I enjoyed it to a degree. That wasn't my favorite thing, but I liked doing it. The band had their marching band, and the choir just sang. They didn't have anything fun, but they did go on the most fun trips, I would say. That was what I was jealous of. But in terms of the academic side, we weren't particularly prepared, and you can probably attest to this as well, we were not prepared enough for being in a post-secondary music education in college. We were not prepared. We had a great teacher, Aaron's freshman year and sophomore year, my sophomore and junior year, Mr. Vaughn, Mr. Aaron King Vaughn, a lovely man, love that man to death. He did, and I'll say this, he did his damn best trying to get us to learn some music theory. Most of us did not reciprocate it. I tried, I think Aaron tried, but most of us did not just reciprocate that.

[Aaron] I did not try. Those first two years I did not try.

[Ben] Oh, I thought you did. Anyway. No. We all enjoyed playing, and we all liked Mr. Vaughn. He was honestly a great teacher. I don't know if he ever saw himself that way, but I loved him as a teacher. I loved the way he taught. He was a great director too. But we were, all of us there were there to play, and none of us really changed our mindset for what anything, like anybody that wanted to get involved in music past high school didn't really evolve our mindsets into thinking, we need what he's trying to tell us right now. Like, oh, I got to go to chemistry next class, or I got to go get the lunch. We weren't really, we weren't particularly, we weren't thinking ahead, which, you know, hindsight's always 20-20. Myself, now, I would definitely be more involved and attentive, but I'm 24 now. I was about 16 at the time. Mindset definitely changes.

[Aaron] I remember a specific exercise. It was my freshman year, which means it would have been your sophomore year. We weren't in the same class, but I remember he had a worksheet, and I think looking back, it was a Beethoven's Symphony. He was trying, Mr. Vaughan was trying his absolute best to try to get us to like recognize when the movements changed, but we, the pain in his face, we were not cooperating with him.

[Ben] He did, but I will say he tried his hardest, and I will always appreciate and respect him for that. And I tried, before he left my junior year, I did try and be more attentive, try to listen, try to learn from the man, and I did feel like I learned a lot from that man. Just not in the music theory sense, which is a shame. But like, I go back on the actual topic. I just feel like nobody's heavily prepared enough for what the undertaking is to become any sort of collegiate music student, in a way. If I could speak on any personal experiences too, Aaron will remember this fondly. We went on a symposium right before COVID. It was January of 2020, and I see him laughing through the Zoom call we're talking to right now, because we all had a great time that you met. But the dichotomy between the music world I was in and the music world that I saw was very jarring, in a sense, because me and Aaron are very, when we talk about music, it's about stuff we both enjoy. But when I talked with music from the students there, it was always about what they enjoyed and imposing their viewpoints. I didn't get a lick in about what I ever wanted to say personally about music, but I was the only non-music major in our entire school not to go. So I have a different viewpoint on it, I guess.

[Aaron] The only one who did go, you said? Oh, I'm sorry, who did go?

[Ben] Sorry, I'm still very tired.

[Aaron] I remember you were so over it with so many of those music kids.

[Ben] It's not that I was over it. It felt draining, in a sense, to be the only one not... It feels like I was in the Planet of the Apes, where I was, I crashed down in the year 2970, in the year 2971, and everybody else is an ape and I'm like, what the heck is going on over here, you know what I mean?

[Aaron] That's a very nice gentle way to describe a camp full of music kids.

[Ben] I just felt like I was on the inside, looking out, in a sense. Not that it's a bad thing, me and you had a good time. We did, I forever remember the time in the hotel room, we both watched a very great movie and had a great time watching that movie.

[Aaron] Transformers: The Last Knight. Yes.

[Ben] I didn't want to save for the podcast, but no. It was a very jarring experience. The best part of it, I think, was interacting with... I can't remember the college we went to, but it was definitely another community college. But I have the business cards somewhere in my pile of papers I have in my room. But the students for that particular college were very nice, very welcoming, tried to get to know... They were like, they don't want to be mean and say it, but they felt like the only normal people besides you on that trip, where they just wanted to be nice, be friendly, show everybody else a good time. And that was a good experience. But sitting through listening to some of the people talk about which Beethoven symphony was their best, and why Dvorak's New World Symphony was the most groundbreaking piece of music ever made, was like, this is out of my wheelhouse. I listen to Steely Dan, I listen to 70s music. If you want to listen to me talking about Steely Dan for 20 minutes, I could definitely do that. I can't speak much about Dvorak in professional sense like these people can.

[Aaron] Well, a couple of things. One thing I agree that it was not a proper preparatory for anyone who wanted to go into professional music. There were a lot of hurdles that I faced later. I was pretty well prepared. I took violin, private violin lessons. I really went out of my way to study and practice, well, at least at the end. But I was pretty well prepared and there were a ton of hurdles that I faced in a lack of personal development going into going into community college and then even more so at University of Florida transferring to a four year. But one thing I've learned Ben that is interesting, but also really sad is if you take all the high schools in the country, we were probably in the top echelon of what people could be prepared for. There is that or of support and sustain for music education throughout the country. And although music theory is integral to essentially every single part of the music creation process, when you have institutions and programs that are either poorly fiscally funded or even just socially funded by people supporting it and caring about it, it's hard to blame teachers for putting music theory on the back burner because if you have so much funding and overcrowded rooms with very little support from school administration or school boards, music theory is going to get left out in the dark. And so what happens is over time, which it's been this way for since the field really began in music theory is you have a gentrification of only the people in the top echelons of financial or even where you're born your zip code, you know, depending on if you can go to a well funded private school or a well funded public school, you only have what turns into almost an elite set of people who have the time funding and access to be part of that in group that you were describing, which is a real damn shame. And so much of that comes from a fundamental lack of respect for the arts, arts funding, public education and public education teachers, especially so that there's that aspect. And so then that breeds other issues. And one thing that you were talking about, so, oh man, that symposium trip, you know, for all 

[Ben] That was a roller coaster.

[Aaron] Yes, I am. I am not going to speak on the specifics.

[Ben] We won't get in any details, but that was a roller coaster. The whole ride that was going on. That was going on the rock and roller coaster. But you were heavily intoxicated because it felt like a fever dream.

[Aaron] It did feel like a fever dream. All I'm saying is out there, God bless the 2020 SCF symposium attendees. I hope you're doing well out there.

[Ben] I hope they are. Wherever they are. 

[Aaron] Wherever they are. But you know, what you're talking about, look, I specialize if I were to say in pop music, commercial music, many of the things that you're talking about, I've talked about, I made a joke, but it's not a joke. I did do a presentation on Brick Astley and Pitbull and so on. But I can talk the talk when it comes to classical music, classical symphonies. I have my favorite and least favorite Beethoven symphonies. I have some hot takes on Dvorak. Love him, but I have some hot takes. But I think what you're getting at, and especially at that camp, because I was there, so I saw that and I know the people you're talking about. I remember it very vividly.

[Ben] I remember, you were there, but you were in so many little small things. You had to prepare like five different solos. You were up for like six different awards.

[Aaron] Yeah, it was-

[Ben] You were so stressed out. You were just not, you were having an awful time. I was not to, not to, not to, not to discredit anything that was set up for. It was a great little experience, but man, they stressed Aaron, they stressed my friend so out, so far out. It was ridiculous.

[Aaron] Yes. It was, it was a lot. But I remember the other students that you're talking about and knowledge and placement within the, like knowledge and personal placement, like you're putting yourself into the world of classical music knowledge, regrettably, and many times can be used as a function to make yourself elite, separate, higher class, more intellectual. Because you know, on the face of it, there's nothing wrong debating with someone else about what Beethoven symphony you like the most or not, but I don't think it would be missed n many people and it wasn't on us and it wasn't on missed on other people that they were doing that to show off. They were doing that to show that I know a quote unquote higher art form and essentially bragging about it. It's hard to describe in detail post-mortem many years later, but I have a feeling a lot of people can understand what we're describing here. And so it's a double pronged issue of we have fundamental misgivings in the Western world and especially in the United States of America and my gosh, in the state of Florida, about the respect for the arts and institutional social support for music and equal equitable music education. But then that breeds a very exclusive, non-diverse, homogeneous field of musical experts, quote unquote experts even, that-

[Ben] That self-proclaimed experts probably best way to say that.

[Aaron] Probably. But then that creates a zeitgeist within that in-group and that doesn't allow it. It makes it seem like it's inaccessible and for a lot of people because of where they grew up, where they were born, no fault of their own, it is inaccessible. So some people criticize that language, what you're saying and some of what I'm saying. We've had these debates plenty at Florida State pin this conversation as a lack of understanding or just a hatred of something old, which is a very simplistic way to counter that and I think misses the point. Yeah.

[Ben] I would, I like the saying of it's gentrified, I think is one of the best ways to describe it because it's sort of a, it's a me first. My mindset is better than your mindset. What I think is better than what you think. And that's not the way you should handle music. It always should be an open conversation. You can have whatever preconceptions you want, but whatever you listen to, but there is something out there for everybody and you shouldn't gatekeep that from the entire world and try to make others feel less for what they like. You know, I didn't, I didn't share my personal beliefs about what I listened to, but I feel like if I did on that symposium, I probably would have gotten looked at like the, like the black sheep of the whole thing. Like you don't, you don't listen to a blah, blah, blah, or you don't listen to this particular symphony. And I was like, no, I don't, I live and breathe music, but in a different sense and not to discredit what they listen to. Anybody can like what they like, but you should not put others down for what they like. Never.

[Aaron] Completely agreed. You know, we've shared many, you and I over the years have shared many intense, usually vulgarity written rants about these sorts of things.

[Ben] I have no idea what he's talking about on the record.

[Aaron] Okay. Anyways, well that, that's all great stuff. I'm happy to talk. I'm very happy to talk about that. I focus on, in fact, I focus on that a lot in my daily studies, but so Ben-

[Ben] It's an important, it's an, before we move on, I think it's an important thing to discuss because if we don't talk about it, it keeps it, it's, it keeps it festering. It keeps it growing. It keeps it, it, it gets worse as time goes on because I can even just, I can just say, it's not even just for music anymore, especially in the state of Florida. Anything arts related does get pushed to the side. Like we have a good friend who started, he is now wanting to be an accountant, but he also now want he, when he first started his post high school education, he wanted to be a filmmaker and he felt like it just, he would gotten neglected by not just his field, but by the whole state putting you down for not doing something that not everyone makes you money, but something that is a living that can sustain your way of life. Not that filmmaking can't be that, but it feels very looked down upon to be wanting to study the arts. And I've had family members go through that. I knew one of my cousins is a dancer. I very big into that very big art form, another cousin who was a big artist, but they haven't pursued it because it's just hard, you know, like it's hard in the world today. It's hard in the world. It's hard to do passion stuff. And I understand, you know, you have to sustain a way of life. That's just the way the world works. But if you want to do it, making your passion, people can work their entire lives and not ever see that much money for it. But that's also not a bad thing. That's entirely different conversation. It very, it's, it feels very looked down upon in the state of Florida, mainly because we don't get funding for it. You know, if I could speak about my experience in Manatee high school, we needed money all the time. It felt like we always needed money for something.

[Aaron] You remember the candle and cheesecake fundraisers?

[Ben] We did, I swear to God, we did two a year, man. It was crazy. We did those all the time. It felt like any time that the football team needed money, they got it. They needed it, even though I could speak directly on the football program, I had friends in it. That program was terrible. Every year they went at least 15 losses, and we only played 16 games. There was like three winless seasons in there.

[Aaron] Cane pride never dies, Ben. Cane pride never dies.

[Ben] I can also be brutally honest about the cane pride. Anytime they needed money, it always went to them. Anytime the man needed money, they never got it. Anytime we needed money in our program, we never got it. Anytime that the choir needed it. Love that man, Jimisco had to get on his knees and beg the school board to get him a drop out of the chalice that is the Manatee School Board funding for anything. And it just felt like, it felt like we were neglected, that what we were doing wasn't, I don't know. It just felt like we just couldn't express ourselves because we felt like we were pushed to the side by the way we were just treated as high school students. In a way that kind of fuels the way we think now. It fuels us for wanting to make the world better. And in a way you can shed a positive light. It'll help us to redirect this to be a more positive experience for generations to come so that we don't gatekeep it. And if anybody wants to pursue the field, that they should feel welcome and included to do so. That they shouldn't be excluded and feel like it's not something they can pursue.

[Aaron] I fully agree. So Ben, what's next for you? Yourself creatively, professionally, so on.

[Ben] There is somebody I'm trying to collaborate with. I don't know if I can send you his link or not, but it is somebody I work with. And he is, he's a younger guy. He's in his, I think he just turned 20. He's a good work friend of mine, good person. He makes very different music for me and we have been trying to collaborate, but things just keep getting in the way. Either if he's busy with school, I'm just busy working all the time. But we have been trying to make, I don't know if it's a song, an album EP, whatever you want to classify it as, but me, him and another friend of ours want to make something that kind of blends our styles together. You listen to mine, mine's definitely more pop rock sort of upbeat. His is more like hyper pop is the best way to describe it. If any of your listeners want to give hyper pop a listen, it is very much out there. It is not for everybody, but it is a good genre of music and that's what he makes. And then our other friend makes dub, it's dubstep in a way, but it's more like EDM dubstep. It's very different from what we both make, but we're trying to blend all that together. And that's one side of the professional aspect. The other side for me is just to try to finish a few songs because I have like about 10 in the chamber that I haven't gotten to because burnout became a huge factor for a while and it kind of got to me. And I put this album out, I have another single out that's a holiday song that it's there if you want to listen to it. It's not my favorite, but it's all right. It's fun though, the holiday song I made. After that, I got kind of creatively burnout and I've been slowly for the last three years making stuff on the side, try to finishing it. I about two or three fully finished. I just have to go back and fully mix, produce and master. But maybe sometime this year I'll get back to it and try to fully put them out and have more new music out on the horizon. I would say that's maybe something to look out for if anybody is interested.

[Aaron] Well, that's good to hear. And so Ben, we talked about this a little bit earlier, but all of your contact information is going to be in the description of this episode and also on the corresponding contributor page on the Theorist Composer Collaboration Host website. You mentioned Instagram, you have an email, what would be the best way for people to contact you?

[Ben] Well, seeing as I didn't realize this until Aaron got in the contact with me for these emails, I have Gmail notifications blocked on my phone, so it would be best to send me an Instagram personal message. That'd be probably the best way to get to me first and foremost, if anybody wants to get in the contact, have any inquiries or questions about what I do, any personal questions they want to know, if anybody does care enough to want to do that.

[Aaron] And to access the Ben Williams YouTube vault.

[Ben] Oh god. Yeah, that, yeah, that, forgot about that, forgot I brought that up, yeah. If anybody is very much interested in some very rough, not so great music, they can be my guest.

[Aaron] I know, I doubt it's that bad. But-

[Ben] Oh it's rough. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's very rough.

[Aaron] Okay. Well, so this has been a great conversation. We've talked a lot philosophically about music, education, music theory, elitism, classism, and so on. I love discussions like this, but I'm going to give the last note to you, Ben. If you were to say to the listeners anything about music, production, composition, writing, music theory, academia, life, music itself, what would that be?

[Ben] Keep on keeping on. That's the best thing I can say. Just keep on going. Don't ever stop. You might face hurdles in your personal life. You never know, that could be financial hardship, personal hardship, death in the family, whatever it may be. Whatever this pesky thing called life wants to throw our way to make our short yet valuable time on this earth mean anything to you or mean anything to anybody else. Just keep on keeping on. Always keep at it. Do what you love. Never stop. Pursue what you want. And yeah, that's all I can really say.

[Aaron] All right. So Ben, thank you very much for coming on to The Theorist Composer Collaboration and sharing your album on my own. Again, link in the description to the Spotify and to all of Ben's contact links. I highly recommend that you go give on my own a listen. Thank you very much, Ben, for coming on to the program.

[Ben] Thank you for having me.

[Aaron] Hello, this is Aaron again. I want to thank you for listening to this episode of The Theorist Composer Collaboration. I also want to give another big thank you to Ben Williams for joining the TCC and for sharing his album On My Own. Relevant streaming links for on my own are available in the description of this episode as well as Ben's contact information. Ben's contact information will also be readily compiled on the corresponding contributor page on our host website as well. In reflection of this episode, I have to say that out of all the guests I have had on the program, Ben and I have had the most similar experiences with both classical music elitism and the sense of otherness in terms of music taste and in groups. This might make sense in that we both went to the same high school and community college, but I'm happy that we were able to discuss the different high and low points of our individual musical upbringings. It also feels full circle that, as said in an earlier part of this episode, Ben was my first ever music theory mentor, even if frustratingly. I remember the night before the music theory entrance exam for the State College of Florida, our community college, I was up at night at my keyboard, calling Ben trying to figure out how to calculate the distances between intervals. You needed a 70% to pass the entrance exam, and I got a 72. Then I went on to get my bachelor's in music theory, and now I'm working on my master's in music theory. So thank you to Ben for dragging me across the finish line on that entrance exam. And a final, formal thank you to Ben Williams for coming on to the TCC and for sharing his album On My Own. For further updates and notifications on the Theorist Composer Collaboration, make sure to subscribe to our email listing on the homepage of our host website and follow our Instagram and Facebook pages. Relevant links in the description. You can listen to future episodes through our host website, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, iHeartRadio, and YouTube, so make sure you subscribe to the platform of your choosing. Again, all relevant links are in the description. TCC episodes are posted weekly on Mondays, and don't miss our weekly blog posts, which go live a few days after a new episode is added. I am also excited to promote that our next featured composer is Brian Junttila and his piece Concertino for Saxophone and Chamber Ensemble. I look forward to sharing my conversation with Brian next week, and you will want to make sure to follow our social media accounts and relevant streaming platforms, because you won't want to miss it. Until then, this is Aaron, and thank you for joining the TCC.